Lateral Hazard

[Leftie]

Typical day on the golf course, usual explanations regarding to NPL differences between yellow and red stakes, is disturbing a few leaves on your practice swing a penalty, etc, etc, and then this cropped up....

(Had a quick look on the R & a site but can't find a definitive answer so over to the experts.)

Scenario. Stream running alongside the fairway and marked with red stakes and painted lines. Player A (let's call him me) carves my 2nd shot into the hazard. The ball is not actually in the water but is sitting on a narrow ledge between the water and the steeply sloping bank. Taking a penalty drop means playing around/through trees so he (sorry I) decides to play it as it lies.

Poor contact is made and the ball goes forward about 40 yds straight into the water without ever crossing the red markers. Ball now unplayable so where do I take a penalty drop?

Cannot take a drop in relation to it's current position as it hasn't crossed the margin of the hazard. ? can't drop it where last played as that would mean dropping in a hazard which I don't think is allowed.

Do I drop the ball level with where it last crossed from in play to hazard? i.e a couple of shots ago. Or what?

As it happens though, I picked up as I was out of the hole anyway, but just wondering ....

 

[palindromicbob]

Must have been a very quick look at the r&a site. Check rule 26-2

 

[Foxholer]

Typical day on the golf course, usual explanations regarding to NPL differences between yellow and red stakes, is disturbing a few leaves on your practice swing a penalty, etc, etc, and then this cropped up....

(Had a quick look on the R & a site but can't find a definitive answer so over to the experts.)

Scenario. Stream running alongside the fairway and marked with red stakes and painted lines. Player A (let's call him me) carves my 2nd shot into the hazard. The ball is not actually in the water but is sitting on a narrow ledge between the water and the steeply sloping bank. Taking a penalty drop means playing around/through trees so he (sorry I) decides to play it as it lies.

Poor contact is made and the ball goes forward about 40 yds straight into the water without ever crossing the red markers. Ball now unplayable so where do I take a penalty drop?

Cannot take a drop in relation to it's current position as it hasn't crossed the margin of the hazard. ? can't drop it where last played as that would mean dropping in a hazard which I don't think is allowed.

Do I drop the ball level with where it last crossed from in play to hazard? i.e a couple of shots ago. Or what?

As it happens though, I picked up as I was out of the hole anyway, but just wondering ....

Water Hazard Rule covers this - 26-2.
27-1 (Stroke and Distance) simply states 'as near as possible to the spot from which the original ball was last played' so that option is available.

You can also proceed using (Lateral) Water Hazard Rule using point where last crossed boundary of hazard as point of reference. That rule doesn't specify a particular shot. 1 shot penalty of course.

And
You can replay the shot that put it into the LH in the first place. 1 shot penalty.

So loads of choices!

 

[palindromicbob]

Would I be correct in saying rule 27-, in relation to a water hazard, only applies if the original ball can be found? If you just smashed it into deep water and can't get it then your only option is to proceed under 26-2. In the situation described the best option is probably just proceed under 26-2. Proceeding under 27-1 is probably high risk because of the risk of the ball ending up actually in the water after the drop. At least 26-2 will take you out of the hazard.


May be misreading it though. Had a few whiskeys

 

[Foxholer]

Would I be correct in saying rule 27-, in relation to a water hazard, only applies if the original ball can be found? If you just smashed it into deep water and can't get it then your only option is to proceed under 26-2. In the situation described the best option is probably just proceed under 26-2. Proceeding under 27-1 is probably high risk because of the risk of the ball ending up actually in the water after the drop. At least 26-2 will take you out of the hazard.


May be misreading it though. Had a few whiskeys

a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e. proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.

27-1 is always available. You don't need to find a ball that you know or are virtually certain that it is in a WH.

I wouldn't use 26-2a i (27-1) in this case. And I almost certainly wouldn't use 25-2a iii (back to point of shot that put ball into hazard originally - as I already rejected that when I played it from in the hazard. So 26-2a ii (26-1b or c) would make the more sense - though, under the circumstances, picking up makes most!

 

[palindromicbob]

I see it now. Basically a snake eating it own tail. The exception points you back at options which then points you back at rule 27!

 

[rulefan]

Typical day on the golf course, usual explanations regarding to NPL differences between yellow and red stakes, is disturbing a few leaves on your practice swing a penalty, etc, etc, and then this cropped up....

(Had a quick look on the R & a site but can't find a definitive answer so over to the experts.)

Scenario. Stream running alongside the fairway and marked with red stakes and painted lines. Player A (let's call him me) carves my 2nd shot into the hazard. The ball is not actually in the water but is sitting on a narrow ledge between the water and the steeply sloping bank. Taking a penalty drop means playing around/through trees so he (sorry I) decides to play it as it lies.

Poor contact is made and the ball goes forward about 40 yds straight into the water without ever crossing the red markers. Ball now unplayable so where do I take a penalty drop?

Cannot take a drop in relation to it's current position as it hasn't crossed the margin of the hazard. ? can't drop it where last played as that would mean dropping in a hazard which I don't think is allowed.

Do I drop the ball level with where it last crossed from in play to hazard? i.e a couple of shots ago. Or what?

As it happens though, I picked up as I was out of the hole anyway, but just wondering ....

Follow this link http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-26/#26-2

 

[Leftie]

OK chaps. Thanks for the responses. Is it me and my addled brain, or is this one of the more difficult rules to unravel? Have I now got this right ......?

Stroke 1. Tee to fairway.
Stroke 2. Fairway to lateral hazard.
Stroke 3. Lateral hazard to lateral hazard without crossing a margin.

Correct NPR drops assumed ......

Option 1. Replay stroke 2 with a 2 stroke penalty.
Option 2. Penalty drop as near as possible to where stroke 3 was made i.e. in the hazard.
Option 3. Drop as near as possible to where stroke 2 first crossed the hazard but outside the hazard as a normal lateral hazard drop but with a 2 shot penalty.
Option 4. Pick up and walk on.

If option 2 is taken and the ball rolls into the water or becomes otherwise unplayable? ...... my brain hurts

Are there any other scenarios in the rules where you have the option to go back 2 strokes to replay under 2 stroke penalty? (And I'm not talking about 3 off the tee where you have only made 1 stroke at the ball). Yeh! OK. Airshot on tee, second OOB, 4 off the tee - that's not what I'm talking about.

 

[backwoodsman]

Typical day on the golf course, usual explanations regarding to NPL differences between yellow and red stakes, is disturbing a few leaves on your practice swing a penalty, etc, etc, and then this cropped up....

(Had a quick look on the R & a site but can't find a definitive answer so over to the experts.)

Scenario. Stream running alongside the fairway and marked with red stakes and painted lines. Player A (let's call him me) carves my 2nd shot into the hazard. The ball is not actually in the water but is sitting on a narrow ledge between the water and the steeply sloping bank. Taking a penalty drop means playing around/through trees so he (sorry I) decides to play it as it lies.

Poor contact is made and the ball goes forward about 40 yds straight into the water without ever crossing the red markers. Ball now unplayable so where do I take a penalty drop?

Cannot take a drop in relation to it's current position as it hasn't crossed the margin of the hazard. ? can't drop it where last played as that would mean dropping in a hazard which I don't think is allowed.

Do I drop the ball level with where it last crossed from in play to hazard? i.e a couple of shots ago. Or what?

As it happens though, I picked up as I was out of the hole anyway, but just wondering ....

Options, as I see them are
1. Play it as it lies. (but you say unplayable, so may be not. But see rule 28 which says you can't declare it unplayable)
2. Play stroke & distance under 27-1a back at the original crummy lie in the hazard. You can, indeed must, drop it in the hazard. You will be playing 4.
3. If you drop back in the hazard and it's in even worse lie, 26-2a (i)a or 26-2a (i)b lets you drop outside the hazard "on a line" or "within two club lengths" using the reference points you would have used had you done this from the first bad lie. Costs you extra penalty so now playing 5.
4. Or under 26-2a (iii) go back to where you played the last shot from outside the hazard (ie where you played shot 2). Costs you a penalty so playing 4.

Given the options, I think I'd take option 4 - definitely so if playing medal play.

 

[Colin L]

Option 1. No. Replay stroke 2 with a 1 stroke penalty - Rule 26-2a(iii)
Option 2, Yes.
Option 3. No. Drop within 2 club lengths of where ball last crossed margin (or at equidistant point on other side) with a 1 stroke penalty - Rule 26-2a(ii)

Option 2 with ball unplayable: see rule 26-2a(i). You have the options of back along the line from hole through point where ball last crossed the margin, dropping within 2 club lengths of where ball last crossed margin and dropping where the last stroke outside the hazard was made - each with an additional 1 stroke penalty ie 1 penalty stroke in addition to the one you've already earned for the drop in the hazard.

By the way, there is no NPR involved in any of this.

 

[backwoodsman]

OK chaps. Thanks for the responses. Is it me and my addled brain, or is this one of the more difficult rules to unravel? Have I now got this right ......?

Stroke 1. Tee to fairway.
Stroke 2. Fairway to lateral hazard.
Stroke 3. Lateral hazard to lateral hazard without crossing a margin.

Correct NPR drops assumed ......

Option 1. Replay stroke 2 with a 2 stroke penalty.
Option 2. Penalty drop as near as possible to where stroke 3 was made i.e. in the hazard.
Option 3. Drop as near as possible to where stroke 2 first crossed the hazard but outside the hazard as a normal lateral hazard drop but with a 2 shot penalty.
Option 4. Pick up and walk on.

If option 2 is taken and the ball rolls into the water or becomes otherwise unplayable? ...... my brain hurts

Are there any other scenarios in the rules where you have the option to go back 2 strokes to replay under 2 stroke penalty? (And I'm not talking about 3 off the tee where you have only made 1 stroke at the ball). Yeh! OK. Airshot on tee, second OOB, 4 off the tee - that's not what I'm talking about.

In the highlighted bit, if the ball rolls into the water or becomes "otherwise unplayable" is when what you describe under your option 3 comes into play. You can't exercise your option 3 without first having dropped back at the original crummy lie.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Option 3. Drop as near as possible to where stroke 2 first crossed the hazard but outside the hazard as a normal lateral hazard drop

In the highlighted bit, if the ball rolls into the water or becomes "otherwise unplayable" is when what you describe under your option 3 comes into play. You can't exercise your option 3 without first having dropped back at the original crummy lie.

If by original crummy lie you mean back in hazard then I'm not sure about that. As I read it, Rule 26-2a(ii) permits you to exercise the options under 26-1b or c without first droping back in the hazard.

 

[rulefan]

If by original crummy lie you mean back in hazard then I'm not sure about that. As I read it, Rule 26-2a(ii) permits you to exercise the options under 26-1b or c without first droping back in the hazard.

That is what it is designed for.

 

[backwoodsman]

That is what it is designed for.

You sure about that? Im taking 26-2a ii to give you normal hazard options after shot 3. Ie you drop where it last crossed (back) into the hazard after shot 3. In this case it never left the hazard, so i assume you cant.
ps ignore my couting in earlier post.

 

[backwoodsman]

You sure about that? Im taking 26-2a ii to give you normal hazard options after shot 3. Ie you drop where it last crossed (back) into the hazard after shot 3. In this case it never left the hazard, so i assume you cant.
ps ignore my couting in earlier post.

Ignore previous. Decision 26-2/1 explains all. But seems odd that you can end up dropping in the same place under different amounts of penalty.

 

[Foxholer]

Ignore previous. Decision 26-2/1 explains all. But seems odd that you can end up dropping in the same place under different amounts of penalty.

Pretty sure the 'penalty' involved is the same/consistent. It's the mechanics/decisions/circumstance of how you got there that differ. And the score you have when playing the next shot.

 

[Colin L]

Pretty sure the 'penalty' involved is the same/consistent. It's the mechanics/decisions/circumstance of how you got there that differ. And the score you have when playing the next shot.

Exactly. The structure of Rule 26-2makes it clear - once you work it out!

Look at (i), (ii) and (iii) in the rule. They show three actions you can choose from if your ball played from a water hazard lands in the same or another water hazard each at the cost of a penalty stroke.

If you choose (i) and drop your ball at the last place you played from in the hazard, your ball is in play and you are committed to playing it. If you decide you cannot or do not want to make a stroke at it, the subdivisions (a) and (b) tell you what you can do. But these are new actions, additional to the one already completed when you dropped the ball at the place you previously played from in the hazard. That drop cost you a penalty stroke and and to get out of that situation if you can't play it is going to cost you another penalty stroke.

The fact that one route back to the last place you played from outside the hazard costs you one penalty stroke and the other route via the drop in the hazard costs you two should simply warn you to think carefully about your choices in the first place before committing.

I must say on learning this rule, I found it difficult to grasp straight off.