Green staked areas

Oddsocks

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We’ve recently added some green stakes to two areas under the ESA ruling but there’s seems a lot of confusion online regarding the rules. Some refer to 25.1c (no penalty) and others refer to 26.1 (2 shot compulsory drop no play area)

The confusion for me comes as the areas prior to being cleared of bushes were dead zones on thr relevant holes but under 25.1c they would now be safe missed to the drop zones whereas 26.1 would make sense?

As it stands all members are taking a free drop, it just doesn’t seem right.

Can’t find anything on r&a so any help would be great.
 

rulefan

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What does the committee want the areas to be?​

2G No Play Zones

The definition of “no play zone” states that it is part of the course where the Committee wishes to prohibit play. No play zones must be defined as either an abnormal course condition or a penalty area and can encompass the entire area or just a portion of it.
 

Oddsocks

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Ask your Committee that installed the stakes (and use the current Rule book for references - your references to Rules 25 and 26 and ESA's are from a book prior to 2019).

That was me based on a Google search.

From a hazard point of view they are not in play unless you fly the green on a long par 3 by 20 yards or duck hook of the tee on a dogleg par 4 for the big boys. Being so out of the way they should be a no play area treated as a hazard IMHO.

The concern is no one seems to have clarification and as such are playing them with a free drop
 

rulie

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That was me based on a Google search.

From a hazard point of view they are not in play unless you fly the green on a long par 3 by 20 yards or duck hook of the tee on a dogleg par 4 for the big boys. Being so out of the way they should be a no play area treated as a hazard IMHO.

The concern is no one seems to have clarification and as such are playing them with a free drop
How to treat the area and what players should do is up to the club committee. Ask them.
 

Colin L

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Your Committee should consider what the situation would be if the ball had to be played from this area. If it would be easy to play out and get on the green with one stroke then it could consider making the area a No Play Zone in GUR as free relief would reflect the easy one shot to the green. But if it were a hack and hope shot that would more than likely still leave you with another shot to play to get on the green, then it should consider a No Play Zone in a Penalty Area, so that it costs a stroke just to lift your ball out of the area. Free relief in those circumstances with an easy shot to the green would be unreasonably generous. The Committee has to decide and make it clear. Should we be surprised that without clarity players take free relief? Not a lot. :)
 

rulefan

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That was me based on a Google search.

From a hazard point of view they are not in play unless you fly the green on a long par 3 by 20 yards or duck hook of the tee on a dogleg par 4 for the big boys. Being so out of the way they should be a no play area treated as a hazard IMHO.

The concern is no one seems to have clarification and as such are playing them with a free drop
Why don't you refer to the Rules directly. Google can give you a lot of out of date and duff information

or

Then you would have noticed that there no such things as hazards by penalty areas.
 

salfordlad

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That was me based on a Google search.

From a hazard point of view they are not in play unless you fly the green on a long par 3 by 20 yards or duck hook of the tee on a dogleg par 4 for the big boys. Being so out of the way they should be a no play area treated as a hazard IMHO.

The concern is no one seems to have clarification and as such are playing them with a free drop
Google rules answers at your peril. They source an answer from anything that has ever been published on the internet.
 

Oddsocks

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Your Committee should consider what the situation would be if the ball had to be played from this area. If it would be easy to play out and get on the green with one stroke then it could consider making the area a No Play Zone in GUR as free relief would reflect the easy one shot to the green. But if it were a hack and hope shot that would more than likely still leave you with another shot to play to get on the green, then it should consider a No Play Zone in a Penalty Area, so that it costs a stroke just to lift your ball out of the area. Free relief in those circumstances with an easy shot to the green would be unreasonably generous. The Committee has to decide and make it clear. Should we be surprised that without clarity players take free relief? Not a lot. :)

This is my point Colin.

The par 3 is a great example. A wide but shallow green with two guarded front bunkers. The green slopes back to front and at the rear is a steep incline bank that used to be full of gorse. This was a dead zone if you ever when long but when they removed the gorse, it become a green stake zone. Under the character of the hole previously it should be a no play with a penalty stroke as it would often take 2/3 to get out.
 

rulefan

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This is my point Colin.

The par 3 is a great example. A wide but shallow green with two guarded front bunkers. The green slopes back to front and at the rear is a steep incline bank that used to be full of gorse. This was a dead zone if you ever when long but when they removed the gorse, it become a green stake zone. Under the character of the hole previously it should be a no play with a penalty stroke as it would often take 2/3 to get out.
In it's new condition I suspect it's designation as NPZ may be to protect the area pro tem. In which case, the ball may otherwise now be playable. Would penalty relief be rather severe?

Further, given that the area is behind the green, would it be possible to find relief that is not nearer the hole? Would a Drop Zone be an idea?
 

Oddsocks

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There is a drop zone no nearer the hole to the right of the green which leaves the easiest shot in as a recovery. Long with a free drop is better than short in the bunkers as it’s a shallow green
 

rulefan

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There is a drop zone no nearer the hole to the right of the green which leaves the easiest shot in as a recovery. Long with a free drop is better than short in the bunkers as it’s a shallow green
The committee need to decide why they have deemed each area to be "environmentally sensitive". Each should be considered individually.
Remembering that the term 'hazard' is no longer used. Penalty Area has taken over but is not restricted to water.
The area behind the green seems to have been a 'difficult' area to play from and the committee may want to compensate for that by adding a penalty.
What was the nature of the terrain in the other area? Was it difficult to play from? What will it be like in the future? Will it be be difficult to play from? Does/will it warrant a penalty to get out of it?
Is the DZ of a similar nature to the rest of the general area around? Would lateral or back on line relief be suitable alternatives to a DZ?
 

Oddsocks

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The other area on the p4 used to be thick bushes where a ball was instantly dead, you physically couldn’t even get in to look for it as it was that dense. They took around 500-600sq ft down which left a lot flint etc in the soil so they marked it GUR, subsequently re marking it green stakes at a later date.

Given both areas where hard on in the case of the 9th a complete dead zone, I’d like to see the penalty areas with a stroke added opposed to a free drop as they effectively leave better shots from the drop zone.
 

rulie

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The other area on the p4 used to be thick bushes where a ball was instantly dead, you physically couldn’t even get in to look for it as it was that dense. They took around 500-600sq ft down which left a lot flint etc in the soil so they marked it GUR, subsequently re marking it green stakes at a later date.

Given both areas where hard on in the case of the 9th a complete dead zone, I’d like to see the penalty areas with a stroke added opposed to a free drop as they effectively leave better shots from the drop zone.
What does the club committee say about handling these areas?
 

Oddsocks

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I’ve posed the question as they have just remarked them with green stakes, no official communicator has gone out that I’ve seen.

I only asked on here as the Google searches around green stakes is varied
 

rulie

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I’ve posed the question as they have just remarked them with green stakes, no official communicator has gone out that I’ve seen.

I only asked on here as the Google searches around green stakes is varied
Unless the Committee has stated what the green stakes mean, the green stakes have no meaning in the Rules.
 

rulefan

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The other area on the p4 used to be thick bushes where a ball was instantly dead, you physically couldn’t even get in to look for it as it was that dense. They took around 500-600sq ft down which left a lot flint etc in the soil so they marked it GUR, subsequently re marking it green stakes at a later date.

Given both areas where hard on in the case of the 9th a complete dead zone, I’d like to see the penalty areas with a stroke added opposed to a free drop as they effectively leave better shots from the drop zone.
I can see why you would like the areas to be deemed to be Penalty Areas but IMO they would better be marked with red (or possibly yellow stakes). The relief from either is slightly different. See Rule 17.
There should be a Local Rule specifying the areas concerned and mandating that they are No Play Zones.

If the committee don't want to impose a penalty, they could leave the green stakes and declare the areas to be GUR and NPZs.


How are the DZs identified? Because the LR should also specify how they are identified and where they are. It should also specify how the relief procedure works.
 
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