Water hazard

[jusme]

I clearly understand the rule and options around both red and yellow stake hazards, however a query that i am unsure about came up on Saturday. Not one of of 4 ball (all pretty savvy on the rules) was sure of the players options.

Bear with me as the situation appears complicated and I will need to outline the layout. Approaching the 18th green and a little of to the side is a water hazard that ONLY comes into play at this hole. Best described as a ditch. The ditch is about 20 yards short of the green and the 20 yards between the ditch and green is high trees (have to mishit to end up in front of the ditch but it happened to the person leading to this point).

The ditch is not so clear or normal. It is split in two by a mound of earth. This side (assume the ditch is in front of me and in front of it is trees, and in front of them is the green) is red stakes and a narrow passage of water. Immediately in front of that is a one foot strip of mound about 2 feet high (still part of the ditch) and after that comes another narrow passage of water that now has yellow stakes. So red stakes nearest me and yellow on the other side - no more than 3 feet of water and ditch between them.

Player hits from 20 feet short of the ditch towards the green (maybe 40 yard shot) but as he has tall trees to go over tries a full swing lob wedge. Carries the ditch but hits the trees on the other side and rebounds back into the ditch on the far side of him - the yellow stake side (he was hitting from the red stake side).

After discussion he played from a similar position from his original shot using the go back as far as you like option (hole and ball and drop in line). Query was as it cleared the ditch both his side red stakes, then mound, then the other side, yellow stakes but bounced back into the yellow staked half of the ditch could he have dropped on the yellow side.

I struggle to see how he can as any drop would have been closer to the hole once out of the ditch as I don't see how he can go sideways, although that would be further away from the hole - but no option exists to go sideways, unless you consider he was playing initially across red stakes and that this supersedes the fact that his ball ended up in the yellow stake side of the ditch (red and yellow split by a mound of earth)

Sorry for long winded I know it is and if anyone can picture this then fair play to you - it would have created a headache for me trying to get it. Maybe someone has a similar layout in their course and knows the response. Sorry again

 

[Three]

I got to paragraph 3...😀😀😀😀😀

 

[rulie]

I clearly understand the rule and options around both red and yellow stake hazards, however a query that i am unsure about came up on Saturday. Not one of of 4 ball (all pretty savvy on the rules) was sure of the players options.

Bear with me as the situation appears complicated and I will need to outline the layout. Approaching the 18th green and a little of to the side is a water hazard that ONLY comes into play at this hole. Best described as a ditch. The ditch is about 20 yards short of the green and the 20 yards between the ditch and green is high trees (have to mishit to end up in front of the ditch but it happened to the person leading to this point).

The ditch is not so clear or normal. It is split in two by a mound of earth. This side (assume the ditch is in front of me and in front of it is trees, and in front of them is the green) is red stakes and a narrow passage of water. Immediately in front of that is a one foot strip of mound about 2 feet high (still part of the ditch) and after that comes another narrow passage of water that now has yellow stakes. So red stakes nearest me and yellow on the other side - no more than 3 feet of water and ditch between them.

Player hits from 20 feet short of the ditch towards the green (maybe 40 yard shot) but as he has tall trees to go over tries a full swing lob wedge. Carries the ditch but hits the trees on the other side and rebounds back into the ditch on the far side of him - the yellow stake side (he was hitting from the red stake side).

After discussion he played from a similar position from his original shot using the go back as far as you like option (hole and ball and drop in line). Query was as it cleared the ditch both his side red stakes, then mound, then the other side, yellow stakes but bounced back into the yellow staked half of the ditch could he have dropped on the yellow side.

I struggle to see how he can as any drop would have been closer to the hole once out of the ditch as I don't see how he can go sideways, although that would be further away from the hole - but no option exists to go sideways, unless you consider he was playing initially across red stakes and that this supersedes the fact that his ball ended up in the yellow stake side of the ditch (red and yellow split by a mound of earth)

Sorry for long winded I know it is and if anyone can picture this then fair play to you - it would have created a headache for me trying to get it. Maybe someone has a similar layout in their course and knows the response. Sorry again

The only reference point for applying the water hazard Rule for a ball in the hazard is where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the water hazard. Since his LAST crossing point was marked yellow, he only has two options - return to the spot where he played his last stroke or drop behind the water hazard keeping the point where it last crossed the margin of the water hazard in a direct line to the flagstick ("flagline" is a word used to describe this).

 

[rulefan]

Does this look about right?

 

[duncan mackie]

The only reference point for applying the water hazard Rule for a ball in the hazard is where the ball LAST crossed the margin of the water hazard. Since his LAST crossing point was marked yellow, he only has two options - return to the spot where he played his last stroke or drop behind the water hazard keeping the point where it last crossed the margin of the water hazard in a direct line to the flagstick ("flagline" is a word used to describe this).

Simple and straightforward. I don't understand any confusion.

 

[jusme]

Does this look about right?

Excellent - truly excellent - it is as if you were there. That's exactly how it was.

 

[jusme]

Simple and straightforward. I don't understand any confusion.

Thanks - it was as I understood it, but always worth a check in case I missed something. Appreciate the patience of anyone who read (and understood - which it is clear some did) and choose to clarify.

 

[6Aces]

Does this look about right?

May I ask what programme you used to create your diagram? Thanks

 

[rulefan]

A very elderly version of Lotus Freelance

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks - it was as I understood it, but always worth a check in case I missed something. Appreciate the patience of anyone who read (and understood - which it is clear some did) and choose to clarify.

You wrote your explanation very clearly 😊

Nearly every problem I see people having, both on course and in writing, is a failure to focus on the most important point 'where did the ball last crossed the margin of the (a) hazard. Personally I always Mark this once established, but accept there's no requirement in the rules to do so.
From that point the available options become clear based on the colour of the margin crossed etc

 

[jusme]

Out of interest to me is why near side is red stakes and far side yellow. Diagram by rulefan above is accurate. Club told us that GUI (on inspection) instructed they change near to red (both used to be yellow) but could not explain the reasoning. I understand that red is used when there is no option to drop behind, but there is clearly an option to drop behind as the entire fairway is behind the red stakes/hazard. Anyone care to offer an educated opinion or guess as to why they were told to do this. Note this hazard cannot come into play at any other hole - literally impossible

 

[duncan mackie]

Out of interest to me is why near side is red stakes and far side yellow. Diagram by rulefan above is accurate. Club told us that GUI (on inspection) instructed they change near to red (both used to be yellow) but could not explain the reasoning. I understand that red is used when there is no option to drop behind, but there is clearly an option to drop behind as the entire fairway is behind the red stakes/hazard. Anyone care to offer an educated opinion or guess as to why they were told to do this. Note this hazard cannot come into play at any other hole - literally impossible

Afraid not. As drawn I would have it all yellow! There is no discernable benefit to the red margin. In practice there may be nuances in its shape that do make a difference.

 

[Hosel Fade]

Out of interest to me is why near side is red stakes and far side yellow. Diagram by rulefan above is accurate. Club told us that GUI (on inspection) instructed they change near to red (both used to be yellow) but could not explain the reasoning. I understand that red is used when there is no option to drop behind, but there is clearly an option to drop behind as the entire fairway is behind the red stakes/hazard. Anyone care to offer an educated opinion or guess as to why they were told to do this. Note this hazard cannot come into play at any other hole - literally impossible

Makes no sense why it would be from the diagram. Which hole is it? I'll screenshot an aerial and stick it up.

 

[jusme]

Makes no sense why it would be from the diagram. Which hole is it? I'll screenshot an aerial and stick it up.

18th at Castlereagh Hills golf club BT5 7SS, Cheers

 

[jusme]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...0d0156a96f616bf!8m2!3d54.5699528!4d-5.8327761

Above from google maps, but sadly you can't see the hazard or stakes at all as they are blocked out by the trees that, in the above photo sits left to the 18th green. Back of 10th tee box sits beside the hazard. You can see this tee box in the photo.

Maybe you can get a better angle

 

[Colin L]

Is this it?

 

[rulefan]

If that is the correct hole then the ditch would be correctly marked red when playing the 10th (however unlikely it would be). It runs parallel to the 10th tee.
It is correctly marked yellow for the 18th.
The fact that the player was coming in from the 'wrong' direction makes it seem odd.

 

[jusme]

Is this it?

View attachment 22651

That's a better angle yes, thanks

 

[jusme]

If that is the correct hole then the ditch would be correctly marked red when playing the 10th (however unlikely it would be). It runs parallel to the 10th tee.
It is correctly marked yellow for the 18th.
The fact that the player was coming in from the 'wrong' direction makes it seem odd.

Understood - and although not in play of the 10th tee (well maybe if you were playing of the back tees and hit your shot 90 degrees left and no more than a few feet forward lol) I can now understand the red stakes as it sits beside it, it has to be marked red.

Cheers for all the contributions - its very clear now.