Ball in No Play Zone?

[Steven Rules]

While you are having that discussion, you might like to 'remind' him that the guidance in the Definition of NPZ and in Committee Procedures 2G(2) is to use different coloured stakes (such as red stakes with green tops in this instance) to identify that the area is a NPZ.

 

[rulie]

While you are having that discussion, you might like to 'remind' him that the guidance in the Definition of NPZ and in Committee Procedures 2G(2) is to use different coloured stakes (such as red stakes with green tops in this instance) to identify that the area is a NPZ.

Based on previous posts in this thread about marking this area, I doubt that different coloured stakes would be well received.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Based on previous posts in this thread about marking this area, I doubt that different coloured stakes would be well received.

Please don't misunderstand things that we are not doing as well as might be done as a sign of incompetence, carelessness or disregard - our guys are keen to put in place what needs putting in place - but where appropriate they might look to be a bit pragmatic about what members as a whole will consider 'reasonable' and be broadly willing to adhere to. I can, personally, be as precise and 'pernickety' about the rules with those I am playing with - but if nobody else in the club is bothered, or if they take a more laissez-faire approach, then who am I benefitting.

Indeed on the stance matter, our H/Cap Sec has replied further to my question...directing me to...

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

And pointing out that 'The clue is in the name...No Play Zone!'

Anyway - and as I also mentioned previously in this discussion, it is very likely that the edge of the NPZ will be defined by a line for the weekend of the Club Championship.

 

[rulefan]

Please don't misunderstand things that we are not doing as well as might be done as a sign of incompetence, carelessness or disregard - our guys are keen to put in place what needs putting in place - but where appropriate they might look to be a bit pragmatic about what members as a whole will consider 'reasonable' and be broadly willing to adhere to. I can, personally, be as precise and 'pernickety' about the rules with those I am playing with - but if nobody else in the club is bothered, or if they take a more laissez-faire approach, then who am I benefitting.

Indeed on the stance matter, our H/Cap Sec has replied further to my question...directing me to...

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

And pointing out that 'The clue is in the name...No Play Zone!'

Anyway - and as I also mentioned previously in this discussion, it is very likely that the edge of the NPZ will be defined by a line for the weekend of the Club Championship.

The R&A also says:
Play by the Rules and in the spirit of the game
All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by: Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, .....

If the course is not marked such that specific areas can be identified correctly, how can players follow the Rules?

Please don't think I am getting at you. You seem to be trying to get the management to get it right but having a bit of a struggle.

 

[Steven Rules]

Indeed on the stance matter, our H/Cap Sec has replied further to my question...directing me to...

If we are going to get into the business of tit-for-tat pointing to relevant passages of the Rules to justify one's position, you could quote to him the introductory words to Committee Procedures 2:

Course Marking for General Play
Marking the course and refreshing those markings as needed is an ongoing task for which the Committee is responsible.
A well-marked course allows a player to play by the Rules and helps to eliminate confusion for players.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If we are going to get into the business of tit-for-tat pointing to relevant passages of the Rules to justify one's position, you could quote to him the introductory words to Committee Procedures 2:

Course Marking for General Play
Marking the course and refreshing those markings as needed is an ongoing task for which the Committee is responsible.
A well-marked course allows a player to play by the Rules and helps to eliminate confusion for players.

He’s not having a go…his link and comment are for me to use to inform others who may not understand the rule…if I so wish to do so that is.

Those deciding what to do are 100% in agreement with me and all on this thread on what should be done…their concern is the members and whether or not painting, and having to maintain, a line on uneven and varied ground with variable grass coverage would cause similar issues to those it would be designed to solve. Plus there is a specific club context in respect of the ditch and associated works that makes rulings around the ditch quite sensitive for quite a few members, but which I’m not going to go into.

All that said, my thanks go to all who have contributed to the discussion as I, for one, have learned a lot about PA/NPZs … plus I’ve been able to open an informed discussion on the matter with the club.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Playing yesterday and red lines have been painted…plus a notice has been placed in the ditch in a prominent and unmissable position stating that the ditch between the bridges and the red lines is a NPZ and that penalty relief must be taken.

Hurrah! I’d like to think that I was, at least in some part, responsible for encouraging the club to do that.

The only thing missing, if I were being ‘completist’ is that the notice failed to mention that no stance can be taken in the NPR even if your ball is not in it…and my playing companions yesterday did not know that.

Anyway…Hurrah again.

 

[jim8flog]

Playing yesterday and red lines have been painted…plus a notice has been placed in the ditch in a prominent and unmissable position stating that the ditch between the bridges and the red lines is a NPZ and that penalty relief must be taken.

Hurrah! I’d like to think that I was, at least in some part, responsible for encouraging the club to do that.

The only thing missing, if I were being ‘completist’ is that the notice failed to mention that no stance can be taken in the NPR even if your ball is not in it…and my playing companions yesterday did not know that.

Anyway…Hurrah again.

Penalty relief !!! For a NPZ ??

Should it not say 'relief without penalty'

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Penalty relief !!! For a NPZ ??

Should it not say 'relief without penalty'

It’s still a Penalty Area so players must take a penalty if their ball goes into it as it’s a NPZ.

As one of the guys I was playing with yesterday observed to me…the ditch as a PA (never mind as it currently is as a NPZ) has completely changed how he assesses his 2nd shot on the hole. He is long enough to carry the ditch, but when he looked to do so yesterday he ended up in it. The club wishes to retain that risk.

 

[nickjdavis]

Playing yesterday and red lines have been painted…plus a notice has been placed in the ditch in a prominent and unmissable position stating that the ditch between the bridges and the red lines is a NPZ and that penalty relief must be taken.


The only thing missing, if I were being ‘completist’ is that the notice failed to mention that no stance can be taken in the NPR even if your ball is not in it…and my playing companions yesterday did not know that.

So would the club expect a player to take penalty relief if their ball was not in the NPZ but their stance was? Which frankly is utter nonsense if that is the case.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So would the club expect a player to take penalty relief if their ball was not in the NPZ but their stance was? Which frankly is utter nonsense if that is the case.

Yes…because that’s the rule in respect of NPZ.

Tough indeed.

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes…because that’s the rule in respect of NPZ.

Tough indeed.

The R&A

The R&A seeks to engage in and support activities for the benefit of the sport of golf from The Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews.

www.randa.org

17.1e Applies if the ball is inside the PA and an NPZ interferes with the stance...I was asking if the ball lay outside the PA/NPZ but your stance was in the ZPZ/PA. Possibly worded badly by just saying NPZ, but my understanding from your previous posts was that the PA and NPZ are effectively the same thing.

Maybe I should just have asked...So would the club expect a player to take penalty relief if their ball was in the General Area but their stance was in the NPZ/PA?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

17.1e Applies if the ball is inside the PA and an NPZ interferes with the stance...I was asking if the ball lay outside the PA/NPZ but your stance was in the ZPZ/PA. Possibly worded badly by just saying NPZ, but my understanding from your previous posts was that the PA and NPZ are effectively the same thing.

Maybe I should just have asked...So would the club expect a player to take penalty relief if their ball was in the General Area but their stance was in the NPZ/PA?

Yes - does the final bullet point in my link not cover your scenario…?

If your ball is outside a no play zone and a no play zone (whether in an abnormal course condition or in a penalty area) interferes with your area of intended stance or area of intended swing. You must either take relief under
Rule 16.1 or, take unplayable ball relief under Rule 19
.

 

[Steven Rules]

If the ball is outside the penalty area but the NPZ interferes with stance or swing, then Rule 16.1f(2) applies, not Rule 17.1e.

Free relief if the ball isn't in the penalty area.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes - does the final bullet point in my link not cover your scenario…?

If your ball is outside a no play zone and a no play zone (whether in an abnormal course condition or in a penalty area) interferes with your area of intended stance or area of intended swing. You must either take relief under
Rule 16.1 or, take unplayable ball relief under Rule 19
.

Yes?????

16.1 gives free relief for a ball in the GA when there is interference from an NPZ.

Where I am going with this is that your signage stating the penalty relief must be taken, may lead players down the wrong path. If you added the "completist" bit about no stance being able to be taken in the NPZ then players might think they had to proceed under penalty.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Yes?????

16.1b gives free relief for a ball in the GA.

You (and @Steven Rules) are right…I’ll check. I think I got muddled with ball being in the NPZ/PA and stance after penalty relief is taken being in the NPZ/PA.

 

[Steven Rules]

This is why I am not a fan of NPZs in penalty areas. Too complex to administer and enforce properly at club level. (as I said in #2)

At least in this scenario, the boundaries of the penalty area and NPZ coincide. It is more complex still (in my opinion) when the NPZ is a smaller subset within the penalty area.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

This is why I am not a fan of NPZs in penalty areas. Too complex to administer and enforce properly at club level. (as I said in #2)

At least in this scenario, the boundaries of the penalty area and NPZ coincide. It is more complex still (in my opinion) when the NPZ is a smaller subset within the penalty area.

This afternoon while playing I checked the NPZ sign that is now in the ditch…and it states the extent of the NPZ (being all of the PA between the bridges) and points anyone questioning what to do to rule 17.1e

Thanks to all who’ve contributed to this discussion.