Junior Golf

[wrightways]

As already said, I'm an ex Junior and very pro-junior golf, and equality in general, but unfortunately as soon as I see inconsistencies I lose a bit of sympathy.

First of all you say they were only told AFTER they won, then you say they were told BEFORE they teed off. As the latter is obviously true, it is clearly in the club's rules, and that's that.

Also, some people don't really have an understanding of how things work judging by many of the comments. It is extremely common that no 2 adult players from the same club can play together in the strokeplay rounds of things like open competitions or County Championships, the latter of which I've just played in and that rule applied.
Next month I'll be playing in a few Mid-Ams, same rule applies, it's just the way it is.

Don't ask me why me and another fine rule-abiding member of the same club can't play together when we're trying to kick each other's butts, but there's obviously precedent so we just live with it ?‍

My apologies I just looked back and it didn't read very well in my original post. Not looking for sympathy. So ...... Two separate competitions. They entered first (paying an entrance fee) won and given 6 balls each as a prize.. Entered and accepted on next one several weeks later and only on arrival told could not enter.Subsequently told of rule change. We understand open comp rules and accept that's how it is because its usually stated on the entry form. Hope this makes better sense.

 

[wrightways]

So challenge it if you think it's not in the rules and they just made it up.
If they made it up, they are completely out of order and you should come back and tell us.

I will be visiting the club today to discuss with the pro and will let you know his response. If I challenge it all that will happen is the club will close ranks and as stated in original post not sour grapes just interested in points of view because you cant challenge the system without causing yourself grief.

 

[The Fader]

As you will see from my earlier post I am fully supportive of junior golfers - but your abridged version in post #47 doesn't fit with what you said in post #1 where there is no mention of this being a second competition.

Difficult for people to give you a view if the situation is not clear.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I will be visiting the club today to discuss with the pro and will let you know his response. If I challenge it all that will happen is the club will close ranks and as stated in original post not sour grapes just interested in points of view because you cant challenge the system without causing yourself grief.

You may ultimately need to move clubs. It is your money, don't spend it next year on a club that closes up, if that is what they do.

 

[wrightways]

As you will see from my earlier post I am fully supportive of junior golfers - but your abridged version in post #47 doesn't fit with what you said in post #1 where there is no mention of this being a second competition.

Difficult for people to give you a view if the situation is not clear.

I agree with your remarks. poorly worded first post. My bad. Suppose i ought to stick with being a mechanic LOL. Obvious I don't normally do this forum sort of stuff.

 

[wrightways]

Hi thanks for coming back with an explanation.
I'm still a bit confused though because after winning the first competition you say they entered another one and were accepted, but on arrival told they couldn't enter??

The angle I'm coming from is that I just don't understand how the latter can happen. As soon as someone wins a competition in a club, people either know them or the whole place is asking "who is he/she?". If there were issues with the lads not being allowed to win/enter I can't imagine a situation where you wouldn't have had a phone call straight away after the 1st one, and definitely as soon as they entered the 2nd.

And how did they both win? Was it a 2 man team event?
What reason was given for initially accepting their 2nd entry but refusing them on arrival?

Sorry but to me it still doesn't fully add up in the real world.

Point 1 is correct. I appears that after they won there was a committee meeting at which rules were changed but we were not advised. They were entered into the next competition (by me with phone call BRS booking not working) and only told when collecting the score card they couldn't enter as they were booked in as a 3 ball all juniors. They are known at the club but only became members towards the end of last year as their away club (Christmas present from me) The club holds my contact details only against their membership . I have not received any notifications (still) It was a two man team event. The reason given was they are not allowed to enter the comp without a senior club member either playing with them to verify scores or walk round as a marker. I am not a member. I hope this helps understand the situation. For info We have been asked on several occasions if they will make this their home club.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Way back when as a junior we were very much seen and not heard. Not allowed in the bar (kitchen back door to get drink/food as and when the staff got a chance from serving members), and the only places we could sit were the snooker room (until members wanted a game) and the damp smelly locker room. We couldn't enter competitions at any time when I first joined but a great Irish guy took us under his wing and as we had a few of us that were coming down quickly got us into the weekend medals and stablefords initially. There were strict rules regarding when we could play (not allowed any of the booked tee times first thing) and had to play with adults. Eventually with a change in secretary and some lobbying we were allowed into all of the competitions and a limit set that handicaps must be 18 and under. I managed to win one of the board events. No issues, no complaints.

Hopefully the majority of clubs are more enlightened these days towards juniors. I know we allow juniors to play in our comps, under much the same rules (handicap 18 and under) and with two or three adults. At least ours are allowed in the clubhouse and no skulking in locker rooms.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

Way back when as a junior we were very much seen and not heard. Not allowed in the bar (kitchen back door to get drink/food as and when the staff got a chance from serving members), and the only places we could sit were the snooker room (until members wanted a game) and the damp smelly locker room. We couldn't enter competitions at any time when I first joined but a great Irish guy took us under his wing and as we had a few of us that were coming down quickly got us into the weekend medals and stablefords initially. There were strict rules regarding when we could play (not allowed any of the booked tee times first thing) and had to play with adults. Eventually with a change in secretary and some lobbying we were allowed into all of the competitions and a limit set that handicaps must be 18 and under. I managed to win one of the board events. No issues, no complaints.

Hopefully the majority of clubs are more enlightened these days towards juniors. I know we allow juniors to play in our comps, under much the same rules (handicap 18 and under) and with two or three adults. At least ours are allowed in the clubhouse and no skulking in locker rooms.

Excellent that juniors are playing in the mens comps but why an 18 limit?

No doubt men over 18 handicap are allowed to enter.....

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

After only her second ever 18 holes today (and loads of 9s) my 12 year old daughter is about to have her first handicap of 54.

Spare a thought for the junior organiser. Encouraging these new players, teaching them the rules, developing the older and low handicap players, integrating them into the adult sections, keeping the integrity of competitions, letting people play their game not babysit youngsters in groups, being mindful of safeguarding, organising comps, organising coaching, dipping into their own pocket for little prizes for everyone, keeping parents informed of what’s happening, and much else besides, all whilst trying to occasionally play themselves.

We all do well to remember it’s a game, and there are worse things going on than feeling you missed out on a trophy because teenage player who’s improving faster than his handicap is dropping has the round of his life. If you were a close second, it’s ok to be a bit annoyed, but if you can’t enjoy his delight there’s something a bit wrong!

 

[wrightways]

Well as already pointed out, that's very common so nothing personal on the club's behalf.
It seems like either poor communication from the club or you've not seen any announcement IF it was made on the club's website.

Interesting comments

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Excellent that juniors are playing in the mens comps but why an 18 limit?

No doubt men over 18 handicap are allowed to enter.....

The bland answer is that's what is in the competitions book. I think historically clubs wanted to be assured that juniors had reached a certain level of competence to be allowed to "step up" to the mens comps. I think the clubs simply took the cash of the adults and weren't bothered about their standard of golf as long as they paid up each year.

 

[The Fader]

Excellent that juniors are playing in the mens comps but why an 18 limit?

No doubt men over 18 handicap are allowed to enter.....

Probably because some old fuddy duddy put it in the rule book in the days when juniors were seen but not heard and it became enshrined ad infinitum

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Do these posters who question Juniors not being able to play or being restricted by handicap from entering Club Competitions have the same pov about Seniors Comps not being open to all?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Probably because some old fuddy duddy put it in the rule book in the days when juniors were seen but not heard and it became enshrined ad infinitum

Nail on the head I think. It was probably a begrudging afterthought to allow them in at all. As I said originally it took one of the respected members to take the juniors on and an awful lot of effort to get them to allow them in at all and even then it was only weekend medals and stablefords to start with. With lobbying (and perhaps members seeing they weren't some sort of child minder and we could play properly according to the rules and observing etiquette) we eventually got access to all of the comps.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I’m sorry, but some on here really haven’t got a clue when it comes to Juniors and how they are meant to be dealt with in Clubs in England.

How many have actually read your Clubs Safe Guarding Policy or been involved with Junior Golf?

Juniors range in age from 5-18, we have a few under the age of 10 with CONGU Handicaps off our Blue Tees, some are saying they should be allowed to enter Mens Comps off the Whites! Please, some wouldn’t reach the fairway on quite a few holes and would get disheartened very quickly.

We progress our Juniors through to the Yellow/Red Tees before the Whites, obviously some are good enough and progress quickly to playing off the Whites on a regular basis, all of these in our Club are aged 14 and over.

It really isn’t black and white just because they have a handicap certificate.

We provide regular Comps for all our Juniors, ensure they are aware of all Junior Opens in the area, have 2 attending County training, please let them be kids and develop naturally at their own level, it really isn’t a case of “one solution fits all”

You need boundaries, both for them and to protect the rest of your members, imagine if a Junior complained about bad language whilst playing with adults etc.

It would need to be investigated properly, imagine how a lot of the other members would feel if they saw a Junior’s name down on the start sheet next to them.

Members in our Club (via England Golf Guidance) are to address any issues with Junior behaviour etc, via the Club Welfare Officer or JLO etc.

Each Club will be different for different reasons, please drop the “fuddy duddy” argument, it does you no favours.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I’m sorry, but some on here really haven’t got a clue when it comes to Juniors and how they are meant to be dealt with in Clubs in England.

How many have actually read your Clubs Safe Guarding Policy or been involved with Junior Golf?

Juniors range in age from 5-18, we have a few under the age of 10 with CONGU Handicaps off our Blue Tees, some are saying they should be allowed to enter Mens Comps off the Whites! Please, some wouldn’t reach the fairway on quite a few holes and would get disheartened very quickly.

We progress our Juniors through to the Yellow/Red Tees before the Whites, obviously some are good enough and progress quickly to playing off the Whites on a regular basis, all of these in our Club are aged 14 and over.

It really isn’t black and white just because they have a handicap certificate.

We provide regular Comps for all our Juniors, ensure they are aware of all Junior Opens in the area, have 2 attending County training, please let them be kids and develop naturally at their own level, it really isn’t a case of “one solution fits all”

You need boundaries, both for them and to protect the rest of your members, imagine if a Junior complained about bad language whilst playing with adults etc.

It would need to be investigated properly, imagine how a lot of the other members would feel if they saw a Junior’s name down on the start sheet next to them.

Members in our Club (via England Golf Guidance) are to address any issues with Junior behaviour etc, via the Club Welfare Officer or JLO etc.

Each Club will be different for different reasons, please drop the “fuddy duddy” argument, it does you no favours.

The problem is for a very long time juniors were very much seen and not heard and were very much the lowest of the low. That was just how it was. It was only when people at clubs got involved and lobbied for them to be able to enter comps, and 18 was seen as a sane benchmark of competency at that time that things changed. For many clubs, that is probably what is still in the comps rule book of the constitution.

I think its harsh to say the fuddy duddy argument does no favours. It is simply a case of people relating how it was/is. Now as you point out there are clearly far more pertinent ways of addressing progressive golfers competitive needs but sadly many clubs haven't taken that route. To simply say have you read the safeguarding policy is again unfair on people on here simply stating a point of view or experiences.

If you feel that strongly then it should be something taken to EGU and other bodies and for them to raise with each club to see what each are doing and whether it fits the moderns requirements and needs. Sadly juniors will always remain towards the bottom of any club agenda and with everything else going on nobody is going to take that on. As a result clubs are left to make their own decisions rightly or wrongly based on their own needs (number of juniors affected, difficulty of the course etc) and like a lot of things with running golf clubs do what they think is best, not necessarily right

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The problem is for a very long time juniors were very much seen and not heard and were very much the lowest of the low. That was just how it was. It was only when people at clubs got involved and lobbied for them to be able to enter comps, and 18 was seen as a sane benchmark of competency at that time that things changed. For many clubs, that is probably what is still in the comps rule book of the constitution.

I think its harsh to say the fuddy duddy argument does no favours. It is simply a case of people relating how it was/is. Now as you point out there are clearly far more pertinent ways of addressing progressive golfers competitive needs but sadly many clubs haven't taken that route. To simply say have you read the safeguarding policy is again unfair on people on here simply stating a point of view or experiences.

If you feel that strongly then it should be something taken to EGU and other bodies and for them to raise with each club to see what each are doing and whether it fits the moderns requirements and needs. Sadly juniors will always remain towards the bottom of any club agenda and with everything else going on nobody is going to take that on. As a result clubs are left to make their own decisions rightly or wrongly based on their own needs (number of juniors affected, difficulty of the course etc) and like a lot of things with running golf clubs do what they think is best, not necessarily right

I am the JLO, so currently have a lot of knowledge of what goes on in my Club, County Clubs and to some degree, Clubs around the Country.
England Golf via The Golf Foundation, Grass Roots etc have done tremendous work over the last few years and have are continuing to do so.

Lots of Golfers, including members at my own, are very vocal in how Juniors should be encouraged and should be able to do this, that and the other, without actually realising we are already doing it.

Like I said, would you feel it’s ok for a Junior with a handicap of 40+ off the blues suddenly entering your Monthly Medal off the whites, possibly shooting over 150?

Think about their PP’s or accusations of slow play etc, just like we can’t tar every Junior with the same brush, trust me, there has to be a line somewhere.

As for Safe Guarding Policies and having done the relevant courses, the policies are not just there to protect the Juniors, they are there to protect every member, regardless of age and protect the Club, so no, it’s not unfair to ask if people have read or are even aware if their Club has one.

Juniors will only stay at the bottom of Club agendas if the majority of members (not just the fuddy duddy’s) are happy with the situation.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I am the JLO, so currently have a lot of knowledge of what goes on in my Club, County Clubs and to some degree, Clubs around the Country.
England Golf via The Golf Foundation, Grass Roots etc have done tremendous work over the last few years and have are continuing to do so.

Lots of Golfers, including members at my own, are very vocal in how Juniors should be encouraged and should be able to do this, that and the other, without actually realising we are already doing it.

Like I said, would you feel it’s ok for a Junior with a handicap of 40+ off the blues suddenly entering your Monthly Medal off the whites, possibly shooting over 150?

Think about their PP’s or accusations of slow play etc, just like we can’t tar every Junior with the same brush, trust me, there has to be a line somewhere.

As for Safe Guarding Policies and having done the relevant courses, the policies are not just there to protect the Juniors, they are there to protect every member, regardless of age and protect the Club, so no, it’s not unfair to ask if people have read or are even aware if their Club has one.

Juniors will only stay at the bottom of Club agendas if the majority of members (not just the fuddy duddy’s) are happy with the situation.

I think that plays into the reasoning behind clubs setting an 18 handicap limit (which seems from the posts on here to have been a fairly generic base line) so juniors have to obtain a certain level of playability and therefore manage the risk of shooting over 150. Of course I wouldn't want to see any junior struggle and scab it round in hundreds of shots and it serves no purpose but I think those that are showing potential and the capability of playing to a certain limit (e.g. 18 handicap) should be rewarded if the chance to enter these comps.

I am sad to say for all of your hard efforts and those of every clubs that support the juniors (we run our own junior academy) while we can give them an environment to learn the game and the opportunity to go out and play, initially from the blues (our front tees) and then progress backwards, most clubs will not view them as important and yes they will always be an after thought until such time as a club unearths a real golfing diamond at which point you may find there is a sudden shift of emphasis to support them and the rest of the juniors off the back of this. It is a simple fact that juniors are very much still at the bottom of any clubs agenda. It may not be right, and it may not be so at some but for the majority I'd argue it is how it is and will be for some time to come

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I think that plays into the reasoning behind clubs setting an 18 handicap limit (which seems from the posts on here to have been a fairly generic base line) so juniors have to obtain a certain level of playability and therefore manage the risk of shooting over 150. Of course I wouldn't want to see any junior struggle and scab it round in hundreds of shots and it serves no purpose but I think those that are showing potential and the capability of playing to a certain limit (e.g. 18 handicap) should be rewarded if the chance to enter these comps.

I am sad to say for all of your hard efforts and those of every clubs that support the juniors (we run our own junior academy) while we can give them an environment to learn the game and the opportunity to go out and play, initially from the blues (our front tees) and then progress backwards, most clubs will not view them as important and yes they will always be an after thought until such time as a club unearths a real golfing diamond at which point you may find there is a sudden shift of emphasis to support them and the rest of the juniors off the back of this. It may not be right, and it may not be so at some but for the majority I'd argue it is how it is and will be for some time to come

Can you provide any proof of “most clubs will not view them as important” & “It is a simple fact that juniors are very much still at the bottom of any clubs agenda.”

These seem very harsh statements to make and not backed up on here or anywhere else were I’ve seen Juniors discussed.