Is this giving advice ?

[Dellboy]

Playing yesterday with a couple of chaps (first time I met and played with them)

Both very nice and friendly but one of them was talking to himself, out loud all away round. He didn't look and say anything to me or his friend directly just seem to talk to himself, but of course anyone around him could hear him clearly.

What i mean is, standing on the tee, he would look at his watch (sky caddie) then say to himself, out loud "right 165yrs so thats a 6iron" or the same kind of thing when on the fairway, also on the green he would say things like "greens playing slow today or bit of a right to left here" Got to say his mate never once changed his club due to his comments and seem to ignore his advice on the greens also.

Now the fact he did this didn't bother me at all, but his mate told me he does this all of the time and has done so for the last 10+ yrs.

On Monday they are due to play in a doubles match together so he asked me if I thought they would get pulled up for this, the chap reckons, as he is talking to himself they would be fine, I'm not so sure.

Any thoughts please ?

 

[Foxholer]

Not advice.

Daft habit, that he should really ditch, though!

 

[bobmac]

Without checking I suspect that could border on trying to influence a fellow competitor by telling him/her what club you have used.

 

[Smiffy]

Funny. I find I talk to myself a lot when I'm playing golf

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Funny. I find I swear to myself a lot when I'm playing golf

Fixed that for ya Rob

 

[Colin L]

How can you give advice to anyone if you are only talking to yourself? The other players shouldn't be eavesdropping - it's impolite.

Edit: Ok, there was a serious point in there. In my view, muttering to yourself is not giving advice which needs a more active addressing of a remark to another person.

Must have been very irritating, although if it's that persistent you could probably block it out easily enough.

 

[bobmac]

In my view, muttering to yourself is not giving advice which needs a more active addressing of a remark to another person.

but one of them was talking to himself, out loud all away round. He didn't look and say anything to me or his friend directly just seem to talk to himself, but of course anyone around him could hear him clearly.

Hardly muttering to himself if anyone around him could hear him clearly ?

 

[Ethan]

Saying to yourself, not advice. May be mental illness, though. May be attempt to get into someone's head, in which case somewhere on the spectrum of gamesmanship to cheating.

Speaking to someone else, though:

165 yards, not advice.

6 iron, advice.

bit right to left here, advice.

 

[pbrown7582]

Playing in a doubles match it's not an issue anyway your a team so can discuss clubs as you would with a caddy.

 

[rulefan]

If his remarks may influence a fellow competitor or opponent, whether intentionally or not, I would treat it as advice. Otherwise, I would advise him to desist.

8-1/8 influences me.

 

[North Mimms]

Interesting discussion.

I would find it irritating to play with someone who "commentates" on their game all the way round, but it sounds like the OP and the Talker's mate managed to block it out.
That said, i admit that I will sometimes say stuff out loud like this. Not often, but if I do, it's on the putting green..."It's uphill" etc. I definitely say this for my own benefit and no-one else's, to encourage myself to hit the darn thing a bit harder.

What I *really* don't like is the Technical Commentator, who witters on about where their weight is, how strong their grip is, and following through etc. This really gets into my head- I have my own simple swing thoughts- I don't need or want anyone else's complicated ones

 

[bobmac]

If his remarks may influence a fellow competitor or opponent, whether intentionally or not, I would treat it as advice. Otherwise, I would advise him to desist.

8-1/8 influences me.

Thats was my point.

"If that 6 doesn't reach, I'm giving up"
or
"That's the best 4 I've hit all day"

I'd suggest not to say anything just to be on the safe side, ESPECIALLY on a par 3, when it's your honour and your fellow competitor has his hand on 2 clubs in his bag.

 

[duncan mackie]

If his remarks may influence a fellow competitor or opponent, whether intentionally or not, I would treat it as advice. Otherwise, I would advise him to desist.

8-1/8 influences me.

Both the definition of advice and 8-1/8 would seem to me to require any comments to be made to another player.

I would therefore require any unfocused observation to clearly represent advice "anyone who doesn't realise that this wind requires 2 extra clubs when playing into it is daft..." would be an example.
In the examples raised so far in that thread,
1. It's 165 yards - fact not advice.
2. That's a 6 iron for me - irrelevant as a throw away comment.
3. That's a 6 iron for me but you might need a 5...that's advice.

Completely agree with Bob that people should generally say less rather than more, as a matter of etiquette and any rules implications.

 

[Marc Cools]

If his remarks may influence a fellow competitor or opponent, whether intentionally or not, I would treat it as advice. Otherwise, I would advise him to desist.

8-1/8 influences me.

I am trying to understand the rules very well. So this is my thinking.

First, his comments to himself may influence, so that part of the definition stands.

Second, the definition of advice also mentions "counsel or suggestion". For me that suggests a more active way of doing. So I think that it implies that there must be an intention to help/influence the other players. The first sentence of the answer of Decision 8-1/8 states my case: 'If the statement was made casually, there was no breach.' And also in the answer of D.8-1/8: 'If the statement was made to an other player who has a shot from about the same position, there was a breach'.

And finally, does the player has the benefit of the doubt? Facts I see are : he does this for more than 10 years; he does it always even when it most likely wouldn't influence other players; he is not a teaching pro (implied) ; he talks to himself. So in this case, I think he has the benefit.

So for me it is annoying but within the rules.


Little note : if he's a lawyer or other unpleasant person, he would be in breach of rule 8-1 even by looking a bit strange. ;-)

 

[rulefan]

'If the statement was made casually, there was no breach.'

Repeatedly talking out loud within earshot of other players is, to my mind, not casual. As a referee, I would give him one warning.

 

[Ethan]

You can over read stuff. If you are first on the tee and you pull out a hybrid rather than a driver, you could influence another player. If you carefully read a putt and use your aim point finger thing, you could do the same, etc etc.

The Rules and Decisions are pretty clear. Distance, the existence of a pond, existence of OOB etc etc are factual matters and as such you can answer another player who asks. A fact is something which is demonstrable and provable. Club choice, wind direction, green break, playing strategy and that sort of stuff are advice and you can't. They are opinion.

Its's pretty simple, really.

 

[North Mimms]

Repeatedly talking out loud within earshot of other players is, to my mind, not casual. As a referee, I would give him one warning.

I'd give him a gag

 

[3565]

Why would you want to listern and be influenced by his self chatter for? You play your own game as how you hit a shot will be different in how he would?

 

[6inchcup]

give him a bumper bag of worthers originals

 

[dejf]

Both the definition of advice and 8-1/8 would seem to me to require any comments to be made to another player.

I would therefore require any unfocused observation to clearly represent advice "anyone who doesn't realise that this wind requires 2 extra clubs when playing into it is daft..." would be an example.
In the examples raised so far in that thread,
1. It's 165 yards - fact not advice.
2. That's a 6 iron for me - irrelevant as a throw away comment.
3. That's a 6 iron for me but you might need a 5...that's advice.

Completely agree with Bob that people should generally say less rather than more, as a matter of etiquette and any rules implications.

+1 nice examples, especially 3.

As for putting, I would add that this might get more interesting in case of putting.
If one says e.g. "this will turn slightly from the right to the left" and there is another player that will be playing very similar putt just after that, this will be an advice. And the very same sentence in a situation when the other guy has completely different putt would not be an advice.