Is the extent of slow play real or a myth then ?

[Slab]

From the R and A website:

Etiquette, Courtesy, pace of play

This section in "The Rules of Golf" states:
Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.
It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through...

Thanks, so under Etiquette - Keeping pace it has the section you quote but under Pace of Play it omits this information (notwithstanding how is a group (B) to know that a following group (C) can play faster if group B is not able to play at its pace due to being held up by group A in front)

 

[JezzE]

I played a foursomes match a few years ago, and we got through eight groups during the match, in fact by about the 12th hole.

Surely it is not up to a 4 ball to decide to hold up a 2 ball because there are other 4 balls ahead of them. Let the 2 ball through and let them take their chances on being let through by other groups. If I was in a 4 ball the last thing I would want is 2 ball up my back. Are there not rules, local at least, that say that faster groups i.e 2 balls over 4 balls should be let through ?

I'm thinking more about competition days where everyone is playing in threes (sometimes fours I guess) with tee times every 7 or 8 minutes for four hours or more.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

2) Waving through - I remain unconvinced that this is the cure-all answer that many seem to think it is on a packed golf course. Yes, when it's not busy, fine. But when the course is rammed, who does waving through really help? The answer is, one group only - those being waved through. For everyone else stacked up behind it simply adds another 5-10 minutes to the round as it can take for ever for those waved through to play the entire hole and for the other group to then play their approaches.

We're actually doing a piece in the mag on this very topic this month, so please feel free to write in if you disagree...

I completely agree with this. You only have to experience being the group behind the one that gets let through to see that it doesn't work on a busy course.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

I always think that at club level competitors should put their starting and finishing times on their score cards.
Perhaps even placing a clocking in and out machine in the clubhouse.
If that happens it is very easy to identify the slow players/groups.
The gaps between finishing times were sometimes 20 to 30 minutes apart.
We did this about 30 years ago when slow play became a problem and the culprits were soon sorted.
Some of the members who had complained the loudest about slow play were then identified as the slowest players.

My old club Hoebridge used to insist on this, not sure if they still do. I'm not sure why they bothered though, 5 hour rounds were the norm. It is a Muni though so a lot of the slow play wasn't caused by the members.

It's a good idea though, I'm surprised more clubs don't do it. Ours insist on start time but not finish time

 

[Hobbit]

Waving through - I remain unconvinced that this is the cure-all answer that many seem to think it is on a packed golf course. Yes, when it's not busy, fine. But when the course is rammed, who does waving through really help? The answer is, one group only - those being waved through. For everyone else stacked up behind it simply adds another 5-10 minutes to the round as it can take for ever for those waved through to play the entire hole and for the other group to then play their approaches.

We're actually doing a piece in the mag on this very topic this month, so please feel free to write in if you disagree...

Sorry Jezz but I disagree. The group that is let through usually makes up the gap between it and the (new) group in front. The group that has stood aside usually keeps pace with the group they've let through, i.e. making up the time, and all those behind have the short delay then also pick up speed as the gap is filled.

If the group searching for the ball doesn't let the group behind through, every group experiences the delay and the gap, genrally, doesn't get filled.

If several groups in a full field search for a ball the last few groups in the field experience each group's delays, e.g. 5 groups x 5 mins = 25 min delay. But if each group waves through within a min or so of losing the ball and the gaps close up, that delay is very much reduced. Its not an exact science but...

And if only people would play a provisional ball...

 

[JezzE]

But if each group waves through within a min or so of losing the ball and the gaps close up, that delay is very much reduced. Its not an exact science but...

Ah, there's another element I will be looking at in the piece. I've been playing golf for 30 years and reckon I could count on one hand the number of wave-throughs within a minute of losing the ball! The most likely occurrence is that they will search for the vast majority of the five minutes before even thinking about waving through...

 

[Snelly]

Ah, there's another element I will be looking at in the piece. I've been playing golf for 30 years and reckon I could count on one hand the number of wave-throughs within a minute of losing the ball! The most likely occurrence is that they will search for the vast majority of the five minutes before even thinking about waving through...

Agree 100%.

 

[bladeplayer]

Ah, there's another element I will be looking at in the piece. I've been playing golf for 30 years and reckon I could count on one hand the number of wave-throughs within a minute of losing the ball! The most likely occurrence is that they will search for the vast majority of the five minutes before even thinking about waving through...

do you not think 1 min is bit quick Jezz ? say our group searching for a ball waves you through after a minute . 2 holes later ye are searching for a ball , do ya wave us through again after a minute ? in club comps there could be alot of repeated waving through at that rate ,, is there a good time ? 3 minutes maybe ?

 

[JezzE]

do you not think 1 min is bit quick Jezz ? say our group searching for a ball waves you through after a minute . 2 holes later ye are searching for a ball , do ya wave us through again after a minute ? in club comps there could be alot of repeated waving through at that rate ,, is there a good time ? 3 minutes maybe ?

In the Rule book it simply says 'as soon as it becomes apparent the ball will not easily be found' so make your own judgement on that one I guess, Bill?

 

[bladeplayer]

In the Rule book it simply says 'as soon as it becomes apparent the ball will not easily be found' so make your own judgement on that one I guess, Bill?

True.. but the problem can occur then is when the judgement of the people searching , differs from the "how long is enough til i wave through" judgement of the people standing behind waiting .. which i think happens regularly ..

The reason i started this thread and it got lost a bit along the way (as most threads can ) i was wondering if it is people who want to fly around are of the opinion it is people playing at a normal pace ( or normally acceptable pace ) that are causing slow play ..
where in fact pace of play is fine and they are causing their own problem by wanting to fly around..

just a thought... im driving along a road , you drive up behind me and start blowing at me to speed up , im doing the correct speed limit maybe even a mile r two over it .. we stop and you ell me im driving too slow .. too slow because you want to tear it up , but bang on the speed allocated for that road .. who is the one causing the problem or who is in the wrong here ?
is my driving too slow or is it yours is too fast , ?

 

[Imurg]

A situation like that - they're going too fast as there is a limit. At some clubs there are time frames that SHOULD be stuck to but there are many reasons that can be missed.
If you're supposed to take 3 hours 45 for the round but, as a 4 ball, you have to look for a ball on every hole then you could add 90 minutes to your time and not be out of line as you're playing by the rules.

 

[JezzE]

True.. but the problem can occur then is when the judgement of the people searching , differs from the "how long is enough til i wave through" judgement of the people standing behind waiting .. which i think happens regularly ..

The reason i started this thread and it got lost a bit along the way (as most threads can ) i was wondering if it is people who want to fly around are of the opinion it is people playing at a normal pace ( or normally acceptable pace ) that are causing slow play ..
where in fact pace of play is fine and they are causing their own problem by wanting to fly around..

just a thought... im driving along a road , you drive up behind me and start blowing at me to speed up , im doing the correct speed limit maybe even a mile r two over it .. we stop and you ell me im driving too slow .. too slow because you want to tear it up , but bang on the speed allocated for that road .. who is the one causing the problem or who is in the wrong here ?
is my driving too slow or is it yours is too fast , ?

I think it is some and some. Some years ago, I wrote a piece in the mag suggesting that the 'hares' were at least as irritating as the 'tortoises' if not more so. Now, I'm not so sure I would write the same thing.

I've certainly played at places in the past where members have taken objection to visitors and tried to hound them off the course, by perhaps not putting out or doing their level best to harrass them...

 

[USER1999]

An interesting one to me is the group who lose two holes on the group in front, but catch up at the end if there is a bit of a jam. They will never admit to being slow, because they caught up. Happened to the group behind me a few medals ago. One of the guys behind was the committee members asked to look.into slow play during comps. He wouldn't have it that he was part of the problem.

 

[bladeplayer]

the one that bugs me is when your in the group that's causing the problem is how slow some people are at accepting we may let the group behind through , even when prompted by their playing partners ..

 

[Doon frae Troon]

About 20 years ago when we had a problem with slow play we extended the tee times to 10 minutes.
It worked a treat. The biggest problem was with the starter holding groups up on the first tee. It was 510 par 5. Normally players would drive off as soon as the match in front were out of range. This sometimes led to two groups of players within 50 yards of each other waiting on the fairway with the match on the first tee also waiting. The starter would hold the players on the first tee. until the players in front were within 50 yards of the green.
One problem was that as it was a busy course with over 1000 members at least 30 players were excluded from every medal

 

[HawkeyeMS]

An interesting one to me is the group who lose two holes on the group in front, but catch up at the end if there is a bit of a jam. They will never admit to being slow, because they caught up. Happened to the group behind me a few medals ago. One of the guys behind was the committee members asked to look.into slow play during comps. He wouldn't have it that he was part of the problem.

We had a similar situation last week. The group in front of us were really slow, we were waiting from the 4th hole. While we were playing the 7th I walked across to put my bag by the 8th tee as the group in front were walking off. One of the guys (a committee member) told me we were playing a bit fast. When I told him they were slow he said they weren't, they were playing at a nice pace but had to wait for the group in front (who were 3/4s of the way down the 9th ). We spent the rest of the round waiting for them, the group in front now out of sight but every time I got the opportunity to mention pace of play there was an excuse.

When we got to the clubhouse one of them asked me how I played and I replied "I played well on the back nine but I can't remember what I did on the front nine as it was so long ago". That just lead to more excuses and complete denial that they had been slow.

Until people accept they are slow and do something about it, I don't see how it will ever change.

 

[bladeplayer]

Some years ago, I wrote a piece in the mag suggesting that the 'hares' were at least as irritating as the 'tortoises' if not more so

.

There have been times i have thought exactly this ^^^ & have been wondering if their expectations is creating, well no not creating , maybe exaggerating the extent of the perception of the amount of slow play

Now, I'm not so sure I would write the same thing

.


Interesting ...May i be so bold as to ask why ?

has your expectation changed maybe ?
Has your amount of free time lessened hence you know want to be home quicker re family or work commitments ..

Very curious on the slow play thing lately as it has been coming up in the club a bit ..

Thanks & apologies for all the questions ..

 

[cookelad]

Within the swindle I play there is a player, let's call him codename Thrush (I may have mentioned him before), who is very vocal about a couple of lads who don't play quite a quickly as the rest of us, these guys have done their best to pick up the pace but still Thrush witters on and on about how slow the round is, playing at pace etc. Yes these fellas play a little slower but hardly enough to cause any discomfort to those around them but still the digs persist!

At my old place we had a group (3ball) of lads who again weren't the quickest and for some reason they insisted on putting their names down immediately after a group who couldn't care less what their score was along as their time was good, needless to say, one day the slower group lost a couple of balls between the 15th and the clubhouse so also lost a lot of ground on the group in front with no time to make it up. When they arrived at the clubhouse the quicker group laid into them (and not just a quiet word) for not keeping their position on the course. When the subs came due for renewal the following year 2 of the 3 had joined Wrexham sighting this "attack" as the sole reason for the move (the remaining member ended up joining me in all comps till I moved Down South!)

 

[JezzE]

.

There have been times i have thought exactly this ^^^ & have been wondering if their expectations is creating, well no not creating , maybe exaggerating the extent of the perception of the amount of slow play

.


Interesting ...May i be so bold as to ask why ?

has your expectation changed maybe ?
Has your amount of free time lessened hence you know want to be home quicker re family or work commitments ..

Very curious on the slow play thing lately as it has been coming up in the club a bit ..

Thanks & apologies for all the questions ..

Interesting... you're making me think a bit too hard for a Tuesday morning...

I do think things have changed over the last decade such that slow play is the more pressing issue at many clubs, and in the game overall. I think the crucial thing is that people are failing to get the balance right between what they feel they should be entitled to do to try and play their very best golf, and how that impacts on the 100 or so others trying to play in the same competition. If your pace of play or routine is impacting on others, then you need to do something about it, but people seem to have become a little too thick-skinned or oblivious to that reality these days.

So what's happened in the last 10 years to possibly change things? More golfers seems to be taking it more seriously and embracing more the of tour pro philosophy in terms of pre-shot routines, rehearsing etc and that is definitely not helping. I also think that rangefinders often don't help either as many people I play with seem incapable of getting their yardages while others are playing - for some reason, they have to wait till it's their turn and then go through the whole painful process from scratch. Let's be honest here - most golfers would be happy if they hit 50% of the greens in a round, and most greens are at least three clubs deep from front to back so there will usually be at least three potential weapons that will see you safely onto the dance floor. A simple glance at the 150 marker should give you all the info you need to successfully select one of those three clubs... (you'll gather from this that I don't own one of these devices and am not a big fan!)

Overly fast players (usually club members) used to irritate me immensely, I think because very often they weren't actually playing 'golf' but rather using the course for practice - not putting out, finishing holes early and walking to the next tee without completing them. I think there perhaps used to be some resentment about visitors 'invading' their patch and some territorial instincts were kicking in, but the clubs clearly need the visitor revenue so there has to be some balance between pace of play and allowing visitors to enjoy their experience and get their money's worth, especially when parting with big money for the privilege of playing. Yes, they could just wave everyone through, but that can get a little wearing after a while if the entire weekly senior field is hell-bent on getting back to the car park before the bonnet on the motor has fully cooled down.

Things are getting worse, certainly at my home club, where, when I was a member previously I don't remember slow play being a massive problem and certainly don't remember medal rounds taking in excess of 4 hours for a threeball. Now I've rejoined, if you don't get one of the earlier slots you can virtually resign yourself to somewhere between four and four and half hours most weeks.

As for expectations, I'm not sure - they may have changed a little, and there is certainly little incentive for me to want to take up too much precious weekend family time at the golf course, but I'm not sure it's changed a huge amount since I started here at GM.

I guess, at the end of the day, it's all about respect for others really and finding a happy medium that helps as many people as possible enjoy their golf?

 

[GB72]

I would be interested to hear what people think about smaller groups at busy times at that appears to be the issue at my club. 9.00 on a Saturday morning is the peak time. Pretty much everyone is going out in 3 or 4 balls, their own little swindles etc. This is sort of what I expect when playing anywhere on a Saturday morning. What upsets the applecart is when you then get a 2 ball or, very rarely, a loan golfer thrown into the mix. You get tutting if there is a queue on the tee as clearly the 2 ball should be let to the front ahead of any larger groups, you get tutting as they approach the tees as you are moving off as clearly they should be played through all of the groups on a packed course and you get protestations of slow play holding them up. The reality is that, in fact, everyone else is playing at a decent pace and it is normal for people to play in 3 or 4 balls at the weekend. It is the 2 ball that is the anomaly that is causing the issue.

Personally, if I am I a 2 ball at the weekend then I know that I am going to be playing at 3/4 ball pace and live with it. I would rather the club took steps to pair any 2 balls up into 4 balls at weekends or even set aside one loop of 9 for smaller groups. If I am playing at a decent pace and there are no gaps in the course ahead then I see no reason why a 2 ball should feel entitled to play through the whole field.

A few weeks ago I was so fed up with 2 balls pushing through the field that I was sorely tempted to split our 4 ball up in to 2 groups to stop it happening.