Is technical instruction a hinderence?

[garyinderry]

Yup. Started with overlap when I started up with the game and taught myself using Hogan's book 1970'ish. Without any fuss or bother - the way my coach got me to 'baseball' grip was so easy and intuitive that it instantly felt natural. And I changed it for putting as well.

What was the thinking behind the change? You don't hear too many being changed to baseball.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

What was the thinking behind the change? You don't hear too many being changed to baseball.

The thinking was me finding what felt comfortable and getting left arm and club set for the strike position...before even taking a stance.

I pick up the club with hands apart and hold it out to the side to the right horizontal...the relationship between left arm and club shaft are then pretty much as I'd want them to be when I strike the ball. I check the clubface position relative to back of my left hand and get them aligned - so club face, shaft and left arm are now set (correlated) as I'd like them at strike. At least that's the idea.

Without changing anything about the positions of my hand on the club I simply slide my right hand up the club until it meets my left. I can then choose to go with them abutting each other ('baseball'?) or I can overlap. I thought that as I had them abutted felt comfortable and totally instinctive I'd just give it a go and see what happened. I then just keep arm, clubshaft and grip (clubface) as I aligned them when taking my grip into addressing the ball (almost a bit DeChambeau). And that's it - strikes are not yet OK all the time but what's not right is nothing to do with my grip.

ETA. Having done this procedure to take my grip and stance for some 6months now I find I can do it without much thinking or taking any time - pick, hold, check, slide - into address.

 

[sunshine]

Elite athletes despite media images that picture otherwise are generally quite boring people (or at least with their sport), they are happy to do repetitions of the same thing over and over to master it, yet amateurs think they can put in a fraction of this effort and expect faster results.

Have you met people who believe this? They must be seriously deluded. Don't think I've ever had a conversation with someone who thinks like this.

 

[garyinderry]

The thinking was me finding what felt comfortable and getting left arm and club set for the strike position...before even taking a stance.

I pick up the club with hands apart and hold it out to the side to the right horizontal...the relationship between left arm and club shaft are then pretty much as I'd want them to be when I strike the ball. I check the clubface position relative to back of my left hand and get them aligned - so club face, shaft and left arm are now set (correlated) as I'd like them at strike. At least that's the idea.

Without changing anything about the positions of my hand on the club I simply slide my right hand up the club until it meets my left. I can then choose to go with them abutting each other ('baseball'?) or I can overlap. I thought that as I had them abutted felt comfortable and totally instinctive I'd just give it a go and see what happened. I then just keep arm, clubshaft and grip (clubface) as I aligned them when taking my grip into addressing the ball (almost a bit DeChambeau). And that's it - strikes are not yet OK all the time but what's not right is nothing to do with my grip.

ETA. Having done this procedure to take my grip and stance for some 6months now I find I can do it without much thinking or taking any time - pick, hold, check, slide - into address.

All seems to be working well for you. All the best for the season. Good luck

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

All seems to be working well for you. All the best for the season. Good luck

We will see. I'm not bad at getting a ball round in an OK score - but playing some not terribly great shots along the way.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm a believer that if you explain the concept of how the clubface needs to create the correct impact with the ball for every club then use the visualisation of driving a nail into the ball that is set at the correct angle your body will be capable of organising it's self to achieve it. OK the student will need to understand how to grip the club but beyond that they will only need to practice the most effective swing that drives the hypothetical nail and our brains already understand how to achieve this.
Golf is just about the only sport that gets students thinking about the many complex body movements required to create a swinging motion.

 

[Golf is fun]

Have you met people who believe this? They must be seriously deluded. Don't think I've ever had a conversation with someone who thinks like this.

I would suggest you're in the minority if you haven't. Have you never met a golfer who watched a YouTube video or applied some tip for 1 range session and pronounced that they'd fixed something or other? It's not exclusive to golfers either, the combination of wanting to feel in control and immediate gratification is a pretty strong human trait.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm a believer that if you explain the concept of how the clubface needs to create the correct impact with the ball for every club then use the visualisation of driving a nail into the ball that is set at the correct angle your body will be capable of organising it's self to achieve it. OK the student will need to understand how to grip the club but beyond that they will only need to practice the most effective swing that drives the hypothetical nail and our brains already understand how to achieve this.
Golf is just about the only sport that gets students thinking about the many complex body movements required to create a swinging motion.

This thinking is at the core of my pros coaching…as per Kendal McWade of Instinctive Golf Coaching..

 

[Golf is fun]

This thinking is at the core of my pros coaching…as per Kendal McWade of Instinctive Golf Coaching..

Interesting to note that the coach I and my daughter work with spent a lot of time with Steven Orr, who is closely linked with Kendal McWade. I noticed your coach also had links to Steven Orr.

To go down a different path, whilst I clearly believe in this approach, I do think there are a lot of people who lack proprioception and don't move well generally which is why they can find it hard.

If you can't easily know where and how your body is moving in space, there can be a big disconnect between what you think you are doing, and what you are doing. All this really means is you need to work on this skill, otherwise even if you have a clear concept of how you want to organise your body movements, you might be doing something different.

Not moving well is a similar issue, if you are restricted, you will have to find an alternative way to do something, a good example in golf is not being able to make a full backswing, at which point you have choices - keep a short backswing and hit is solid but with low speed, try and make a longer backswing but risk making it harder to make solid contact but have more speed, get strong and more explosive so you can have speed with a short backswing, get better mobility and movement so you can hit it solid with a longer backswing with speed. The last 2 options are the hardest and take a lot of effort, but the best. The first 2 options have compromises.

 

[sunshine]

I would suggest you're in the minority if you haven't. Have you never met a golfer who watched a YouTube video or applied some tip for 1 range session and pronounced that they'd fixed something or other? It's not exclusive to golfers either, the combination of wanting to feel in control and immediate gratification is a pretty strong human trait.

Fixed an issue - yes
Mastered the swing - no. You have to be deluded if you think you can become an elite golfer from watching youtube videos to cure your horrendous slice.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Interesting to note that the coach I and my daughter work with spent a lot of time with Steven Orr, who is closely linked with Kendal McWade. I noticed your coach also had links to Steven Orr.

To go down a different path, whilst I clearly believe in this approach, I do think there are a lot of people who lack proprioception and don't move well generally which is why they can find it hard.

If you can't easily know where and how your body is moving in space, there can be a big disconnect between what you think you are doing, and what you are doing. All this really means is you need to work on this skill, otherwise even if you have a clear concept of how you want to organise your body movements, you might be doing something different.

Not moving well is a similar issue, if you are restricted, you will have to find an alternative way to do something, a good example in golf is not being able to make a full backswing, at which point you have choices - keep a short backswing and hit is solid but with low speed, try and make a longer backswing but risk making it harder to make solid contact but have more speed, get strong and more explosive so you can have speed with a short backswing, get better mobility and movement so you can hit it solid with a longer backswing with speed. The last 2 options are the hardest and take a lot of effort, but the best. The first 2 options have compromises.

I think I’m looking at getting more ‘explosive’. I had to make a significant change to my swing as it was based upon very fast hands sorting things immediately prior to the strike - but this action was part of what became very destructive. I had to change and part of that change was playing with very passive hands - fast hands being a part of the problem that worked until it didn’t.

Now that I seem to have resolved (at least in the main) the core issue…I could now look to increasing hand speed and at the same time could look to be clearing my LHS a bit better (lack of clearing LHS being part of the old swing). But that’s just my thinking and that may not at all be what I need to do…as you said…my coach can see what I am doing…my head cannot but it can invent what I think I am doing…and not doing…and come up with solutions to the wrong question.

Short game lesson this afternoon…

 

[SocketRocket]

Interesting to note that the coach I and my daughter work with spent a lot of time with Steven Orr, who is closely linked with Kendal McWade. I noticed your coach also had links to Steven Orr.

To go down a different path, whilst I clearly believe in this approach, I do think there are a lot of people who lack proprioception and don't move well generally which is why they can find it hard.

If you can't easily know where and how your body is moving in space, there can be a big disconnect between what you think you are doing, and what you are doing. All this really means is you need to work on this skill, otherwise even if you have a clear concept of how you want to organise your body movements, you might be doing something different.

Not moving well is a similar issue, if you are restricted, you will have to find an alternative way to do something, a good example in golf is not being able to make a full backswing, at which point you have choices - keep a short backswing and hit is solid but with low speed, try and make a longer backswing but risk making it harder to make solid contact but have more speed, get strong and more explosive so you can have speed with a short backswing, get better mobility and movement so you can hit it solid with a longer backswing with speed. The last 2 options are the hardest and take a lot of effort, but the best. The first 2 options have compromises.

Hardly anyone has a problem throwing a golf ball into the ground, they don't need to try and manipulate their bodies as their brain already understands how to sequence itself.

 

[Golf is fun]

Hardly anyone has a problem throwing a golf ball into the ground, they don't need to try and manipulate their bodies as their brain already understands how to sequence itself.

Most people can throw a ball, fewer people can throw a ball accurately with speed.

Some people struggle with simple movements like squatting down, or standing on one leg.

There is also the challenge of what you are self organising for. What if I can make a perfect on plane backswing with my driver at 70mph, but to get to 110mph I have to make a wild over the top movement? How do I organise that into a golf swing when I need (want) both parameters?

I'm a massive proponent of self organising systems, but you have to understand they have limitations or constraints, and how to coach an individual around these.

 

[Dunesman]

I'm a believer that if you explain the concept of how the clubface needs to create the correct impact with the ball for every club then use the visualisation of driving a nail into the ball that is set at the correct angle your body will be capable of organising it's self to achieve it. OK the student will need to understand how to grip the club but beyond that they will only need to practice the most effective swing that drives the hypothetical nail and our brains already understand how to achieve this.
Golf is just about the only sport that gets students thinking about the many complex body movements required to create a swinging motion.

Only exceptions find the effective swing though. Most who try that, even though they know how the clubface should be a at impact, end up reverse pivoting, heaving down with their torso, shattering Hogans pane of glass, and deliver the club 10deg out to in, on an upward flip to reach the ball, and pull, or pull hook, or in desperation to clise the clubface, smother hook it. Thats why the self organise your swing once you know the club impact position you want, approach, gives is a world of slicers with an average handicap of 17.
They just dont find an effective swing on their own. For proof, stand on any club 1st on a Saturday morning for half an hour.

 

[Hobbit]

Hardly anyone has a problem throwing a golf ball into the ground, they don't need to try and manipulate their bodies as their brain already understands how to sequence itself.

I’ve used something similar as an example of the difference between instinct and manufactured. “Right, crumple this sheet of paper and throw in the bin.” Success rate significantly higher than 50%. “Now crumple it and hold it with your thumb on the top and your 4 fingers underneath, then throw it in the bin.” Success rate noticeably below 50%.

The body has natural, comfortable positions. Another example; put your palms together, 90* to the ground. In effect, you’re mimicking a neutral grip. Right handed, if you grip a club with your hands turned to the right then hit a ball you stand a decent chance of hooking it. Your hands, body, looks to find the neutral, comfortable position. Turn the hands other way and you’ll slice it.

Learn to hit the ball badly, and when you unintentionally hit a bad shot you’ve got a good idea what you’ve done wrong. Equally, if there’s a tree in front of you, knowing how to consistently put a hook/slice on it can be really helpful.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And so just back from a short game lesson with my pro/coach. Key to what I've learnt is trusting the tool - and fluidity. I was way too constrained and taut. After me hitting just two shots he could see what I was doing. So he talked through what the tools we have to hand (54° and 58° wedges) and how they work for the shortest pitches. He got my address position sorted and had me getting a feel for the club brushing the turf - at the same time getting me to allow myself fluidity in backswing and follow-through. And hey presto. Gently popping the ball up in the air with a nice bit of spin.

I suppose that the technical side of what I was taught this afternoon was all about understanding the tool I had and how it works so that I can use it to achieve the result I want.

I felt that the lack of fluidity might be my issue with my longer irons. Pro lent me a Ping 440 5hybrid to try out for me 160-180 distance. And utilizing same feeling of fluidity I hit it beautifully. well I never...except I think I can now.

 

[SocketRocket]

Most people can throw a ball, fewer people can throw a ball accurately with speed.

Some people struggle with simple movements like squatting down, or standing on one leg.

There is also the challenge of what you are self organising for. What if I can make a perfect on plane backswing with my driver at 70mph, but to get to 110mph I have to make a wild over the top movement? How do I organise that into a golf swing when I need (want) both parameters?

I'm a massive proponent of self organising systems, but you have to understand they have limitations or constraints, and how to coach an individual around these.

If you were swinging an axe at a tree would you swing out to in, hammering a nail would you naturally cock and release your wrist, throwing a dart would you need someone to explain how to use your shoulder, elbow and wrist, the majority of people could throw a golf ball hard into the ground Infront of them without any tuition. In golf we get ourselves horribly confused by the detail of how our body parts should move and in what sequence, our brains naturally understand these things that have been installed into our DNA through evolution. OK, there are some people who are uncoordinated but not many and those that are tend to get worse when given detailed instruction on how to move, some people can't march and carry out what's referred to tictocking, the more they are told what to do the worse they get but if left to walk naturally they're ok.
Using a task based approach is normally a much better way to learn, the image of driving nails into golf balls is a really good way to understand good impact conditions.

 

[Dunesman]

Hardly anyone has a problem throwing a golf ball into the ground, they don't need to try and manipulate their bodies as their brain already understands how to sequence itself.

This is a false analogy though.
What you say is true. But does not mean it applies to hitting a golf ball. One can equally say hardly anyone has a problem hitting a ball with a golf club. Rarest whiff aside, we all succeed perfectly every single time we try it. We do make contact and move the ball.
We can throw a ball into the ground as you say with unconscious brain sequencing because we are not concerned with hitting a spot one inch square, at a specific speed, at a particular impact angle and with precise spin rate on the ball, in three dimensions.
If that were the requirement, then we couldnt just let what happens happen. We would have to override our instinct, and become concerned with precisely the physical finger, wrist, arm, shoulder, and torso movements to achieve that very specific goal.
Hitting a golf ball to the precision needed for what we call good golf, unfortunately/fortunately requires consideration of similarly precise technique.
At this stage, you have probably reversed your opinion !

 

[Whereditgo]

Only exceptions find the effective swing though. Most who try that, even though they know how the clubface should be a at impact, end up reverse pivoting, heaving down with their torso, shattering Hogans pane of glass, and deliver the club 10deg out to in, on an upward flip to reach the ball, and pull, or pull hook, or in desperation to clise the clubface, smother hook it. Thats why the self organise your swing once you know the club impact position you want, approach, gives is a world of slicers with an average handicap of 17.
They just dont find an effective swing on their own. For proof, stand on any club 1st on a Saturday morning for half an hour.

You're assuming that those average 17 handicappers know and understand what the impact conditions and flight laws are and actually practice to try and implement them, the vast majority won't and don't.

 

[Imurg]

This thread is certainly becoming a hinderence....