Is it fair that a ladies play from red and men white in the same competition?

[Colin L]

Some men at my club struggle off the comp tees due to age ,length of course,but the main problem is their handicap is 28 Max in competition.
so 28 shots over 7000 yds.

where a lady golfer will get 36 shots over 5800 yds plus one shot for sss.

if both genders play to a 36 hcap of the respected tees then the men are at a disadvantage as the max hcap is 8 +1 =9 shots lower than the ladies.

in an ideal world you would get the hcap that suits your ability if that is 40 shots then so be it , as a player who shoots 40 over who can't play to 28 is not going to shoot lower just because his handicap is capped at 28 and the same for a 36 handicapper but she has 8 shots more and plays 1000 yds less

in this scenario I can see why some men are unhappy.

i know the powers that be are trying to address this but this remains unsolved yet.

I think it's one of them " You can't please everyone all the time".
So if you don't like losing to a woman don't play in mixed competition.

but if you can't play to the max handicap then you should be used to not winning and this issue should not bother you that much anyway.

we should learn to play golf enjoy it and just stop stressing about trivial stuff.

Perhaps it is time your club looked at the CONGU Club Handicap.

 

[doublebogey7]

I can sort of see a point in this. Certainly at our club you can only use the white tees for competitions and matches, all bounce games are off the yellow tees. As such the perception is that men are given a greater challenge in competition play than women as their course is lengthened from what they are used to. If there were only 2 tees, white and red, there would be no issue or, I suspect, there would be less issue if the men could practice and play on the white tees every week.

The other issue is that golf defines the difference between men and women golfers purely on the perceived difference in ball striking distance. Now, there are many women who can hit the ball further than me and many men who hit the ball a far shorter distance than average. They then see the move back to the white tees as an extreme disadvantage, a disadvantage that the ladies do not have to face.

Personally, the ideal system for me would be one where every golfer had 3 handicaps, one for each colour tee and it was open to them which tee they played off. I am not a long hitter so I may chose to play the competitions off a lower handicap and use the yellow tees, or play off an even lower handicap and use the reds. Alternatively, I may like the challenge and play off a higher handicap and use the white tees. Surely that would be the most inclusive solution so as every golfer could enter competitions based on a length of course that suits their game.

Isn't this what having an SSS for each tee and each gender provides?

 

[rulie]

I can sort of see a point in this. Certainly at our club you can only use the white tees for competitions and matches, all bounce games are off the yellow tees. As such the perception is that men are given a greater challenge in competition play than women as their course is lengthened from what they are used to. If there were only 2 tees, white and red, there would be no issue or, I suspect, there would be less issue if the men could practice and play on the white tees every week.

The other issue is that golf defines the difference between men and women golfers purely on the perceived difference in ball striking distance. Now, there are many women who can hit the ball further than me and many men who hit the ball a far shorter distance than average. They then see the move back to the white tees as an extreme disadvantage, a disadvantage that the ladies do not have to face.

Personally, the ideal system for me would be one where every golfer had 3 handicaps, one for each colour tee and it was open to them which tee they played off. I am not a long hitter so I may chose to play the competitions off a lower handicap and use the yellow tees, or play off an even lower handicap and use the reds. Alternatively, I may like the challenge and play off a higher handicap and use the white tees. Surely that would be the most inclusive solution so as every golfer could enter competitions based on a length of course that suits their game.

That is exactly what the slope system does - you have a "handicap index" which is a normalized value. When you decide to play any set of tees, you look at a table that converts your handicap index to a course handicap for the set of tees you have chosen. There are adjustments made for competitions where players play different tees.

 

[duncan mackie]

That is exactly what the slope system does - you have a "handicap index" which is a normalized value. When you decide to play any set of tees, you look at a table that converts your handicap index to a course handicap for the set of tees you have chosen. There are adjustments made for competitions where players play different tees.

It's certainly a step forward, but even using an additional set of parameters associated with a nominal bogey golfer to derive playing handicap from handicap index for any given golfer on any given course and tees the reality will always be different because there's even less consistency in what characteristics a bogey golfer has than those for a scratch one!

Ultimately as soon as you move any player away from the course and tees upon which his performances have provided his handicap in the first place there is a risk that he will find the new course (whether just new tees or completely new course) suits his game better, or worse.
You can't avoid this reality.

 

[rulie]

It's certainly a step forward, but even using an additional set of parameters associated with a nominal bogey golfer to derive playing handicap from handicap index for any given golfer on any given course and tees the reality will always be different because there's even less consistency in what characteristics a bogey golfer has than those for a scratch one!

Ultimately as soon as you move any player away from the course and tees upon which his performances have provided his handicap in the first place there is a risk that he will find the new course (whether just new tees or completely new course) suits his game better, or worse.
You can't avoid this reality.

I'm not trying to avoid it. No handicapping system is perfect, but some are better than others; all of them can be manipulated by those that want to do so.

 

[scubascuba3]

In a competition when ladies play from red and men from whites, i assume there will be two CSS's?

 

[rulefan]

CONGU recommends not.

18.11 When a club runs a single competition using more than one set of tees over the same
course (e.g. mixed or single gender events as detailed in Appendix O) it is recommended
that, whenever practicable, a Single CSS Adjustment is calculated and applied to the
SSS’s of the relevant sets of tees (Appendix B Clauses 2.1 to 2.4).

 

[scubascuba3]

CONGU recommends not.

18.11 When a club runs a single competition using more than one set of tees over the same
course (e.g. mixed or single gender events as detailed in Appendix O) it is recommended
that, whenever practicable, a Single CSS Adjustment is calculated and applied to the
SSS’s of the relevant sets of tees (Appendix B Clauses 2.1 to 2.4).

So say the single CSS adjustment is +1, and red SSS is 72 and white SSS is 74, would the CSS be 73 and 75 respectively?

 

[williamalex1]

Is there any reason men can't put 3 cards in for a handicap playing from the ladies tees .

 

[rulefan]

Is there any reason men can't put 3 cards in for a handicap playing from the ladies tees .

They can't if the tees haven't been rated for men as the SSS is used in the calculation.

 

[williamalex1]

They can't if the tees haven't been rated for men as the SSS is used in the calculation.

So why not rate them for men

 

[rulefan]

So why not rate them for men

Many courses are now being rated for men. Have you not bothered to read the rest of the thread?

 

[rulefan]

There are just under 2000 clubs to be rated by 2020. Less than 2000 have been done so far.

Less than 200 have been done so far.

 

[williamalex1]

Many courses are now being rated for men. Have you not bothered to read the rest of the thread?

No, do I have to ?.

 

[rulefan]

No, do I have to ?.

No. But it would have saved your posting a redundant question if you had.