Is a scratch player not as good as 20 years ago ?

[User20204]

Listening to "the cut" yesterday and in it Colin Montgomery said or at least made reference to scratch players but being as good as scratch players in his day, citing butter zones etc.

Made me think, I'm sure it's the same buffer type zone there was 20 years ago was it not ?? And if it was is he talking nonsense or the truth??

 

[duncan mackie]

20 years is pretty neutral but 40 years ago there would have been a very small difference in how the various scores influenced the calculation.
Even then, it would depend on the players exact profile to establish whether they would be higher, or lower, then or today.
On balance it would be neutral (the various systems focusing closely on that metric) but the more variation in scoring the more the player would benefit (be a lower handicap for any set of scores) from the current calculations.
For most Scr it will be pretty neutral.
As the handicaps increase they get weaker relative to the past - today's 24 would be closer to 20 40 years ago, maybe even 18!

 

[dronfield]

I heard the podcast with Wayne Riley where he said that he sees players on the range "getting away with it", ie, not top ball strikers.

He didnt expand further (names, reasons etc), but i assume he meant that technology advances re club forgiveness, brings lesser ball strikers into the mix at tournaments.

Rich

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I heard the podcast with Wayne Riley where he said that he sees players on the range "getting away with it", ie, not top ball strikers.

He didnt expand further (names, reasons etc), but i assume he meant that technology advances re club forgiveness, brings lesser ball strikers into the mix at tournaments.

Rich

Faldo said something similar at the end of last year. He wanted smaller club heads for woods in the pro game so the better ball strikers came out on top more consistently. The modern clubs hid some cracks in his view.

He also made it clear that the amateur game should be left alone. No problem with amateurs getting help, this was just about the pro game.

 

[Dibby]

Faldo said something similar at the end of last year. He wanted smaller club heads for woods in the pro game so the better ball strikers came out on top more consistently. The modern clubs hid some cracks in his view.

He also made it clear that the amateur game should be left alone. No problem with amateurs getting help, this was just about the pro game.

Maybe it's just me, but this comes across as sour grapes.

The top players are still the most skilled. Maybe the skills needed have changed, and speed and athleticism now have more importance than previously, but it's not like Faldo or Montgomerie could be bombers with modern equipment. So, because the modern game doesn't favour their strengths, they decide it's less skilful!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Surely when Faldo and Montgomery were coming through as amateurs, there wasn't the equipment around as there is today, but perhaps more importantly, were there even the same opportunities as there seems to be for the top amateurs to compete. While I'd concede the new equipment is more accessible and probably does hide poor ball striking mistakes to a degree, although you still have to be a very good player to be off a plus handicap, the current amateur also has access into custom fitting to make the gear as dialled into their game as possible. I think every sport, even at top amateur level has moved on but I still think that transition from being a very good amateur to a tour professional is a huge one and there are still many that either never make it or realise perhaps they won't and so don't try

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Maybe it's just me, but this comes across as sour grapes.

The top players are still the most skilled. Maybe the skills needed have changed, and speed and athleticism now have more importance than previously, but it's not like Faldo or Montgomerie could be bombers with modern equipment. So, because the modern game doesn't favour their strengths, they decide it's less skilful!

That is entirely possible but in the tone of his voice it did not come across that way. He stated very clearly that the very top players were still wonderful ball strikers. It was people in the middle who he thought were getting by when perhaps they should not, the eqpt helped them. He did hark back to days of having to manouvre the ball a lot more rather than the modern player largely over powering a course but he was not belittling the top golfers.

 

[Scozzy]

Might be worth asking the shark as well.He was clearly the best driver of the ball in his era with a persimmon....high,low off the deck, whatever you wanted,was waay long and straight too.Then big Bertha came along and that was it,his advantage disappeared almost overnight, still a hell of a player and career but new tech did him few favours

 

[Britishshooting]

I mean it's before my time as I was 7 when Faldo won his last major but in those days didn't all tour players pretty much use blades / MB's etc. ? TP-11 blade for Faldo. In fairness a lot of Mizuno sponsored tour players opt for MP-18's some the more forgiving JPX 919 Tour.

Titleist staffers however most use AP2's which a good percentage of weekend golfers are happy to utilise. They could even opt for the slightly more forgiving CB but most see to take all the forgiveness they can get. Adam scott notoriously being one of the select few that opts for the bladed option.

 

[Deleted member 1147]

A lot of the very top players use blades - Rory, DJ, JT, Rose, Tiger, Scotty, Casey, Tommy, RCB, for example

But quite a few also use small cavity clubs as well

 

[Wolf]

I listened to it as well and think the OP is under selling what Monty actually said.

He wasn't slating the modern game he even said he thinks though the game has changed yes but that its actually in a really good place right now.

All he was really saying was back when they played the emphasis was on making the ball work and being as good as you can from around 100yards to score. He said its changed in that now the guys are so more athletic they play a completely different game to what he's used to he certainly didn't slate the modern game.

He did say though that the handicap system does now seem defunct and that changes coming should create better balanced handicaps, and he never said scratch players were better in past, the question put to him was does he think his son Cameron could turn pro as he plays off scratch. Monty was quite open in saying no he maybe off scratch but he's not going to be able to compete with the Am's that turn pro these days off +5.. But that his level will help in the business world when he is older. He also said basically there no such thing as a +5 Am, they're basically Pro golfers that don't get paid as they're so much better than scratch.

His only real comparison to the past was when he said he first broke 100 at the Age of 14 when he shot 96 and won a coke. But went on to say now 14 year old these days are the scratch or better golfers already, hence the game has really moved on.

There was a lot more to the interview than what I've paraphrased, it was actually a really genuine interview and it's a good listen. Admitted things he has done wrong and how he was in total awe of Tiger when they played the 97 Masters that the game he played that day wasnt recognisable as any golf he'd ever seen and that was the change that brought about modern golf.

 

[Parsaregood]

Not old enough to have played 20 years ago, though know a few older guys who can play a bit. One played off Plus 3 20 years ago and plays off Plus 1 now so isn't as good, the other plays off scratch and played off Plus 1ish 20 years ago. One was off scratch for years and now struggles to play off 4. They will tell you basically there's not much difference, also the css moves. Our course was just measured again recently and the css is the same. The standard is the same.

I think in the pro game is where you would see a big difference. 30 years ago guys who could shape it and move it about at will, now balls are so stable and drivers so low spin that the wind doesn't affect it as much so guys tend to just hit it pretty straight with a hint of shape. Couple of exceptions like tiger and bubba but for the most part the pros now just hit a straight ball with a couple of yards of shape either way.

 

[jim8flog]

I have played at the same club for over 30 years and in that period to the best of my memory there have only ever been 4 players to reach scratch one of thise became pro and was on the European Tour until hit by a serious injury, one is on the current England Amateur squad, one could have made it if he had bothered and the last on is only good enough for amateur level.

So at our club I see no drop in the standard and maybe a slight betterment.

What I have noticed in recent years is an increase in the number of single figure players and I would probably put that down to the changes in equipment.

 

[Boabski]

I think modern day players have better equipment in the bag nowadays than they would have had 20 -30 years ago , does that make them worse scratch / pro players ????????????? who knows , they certainly get away with a lot more.
more forgiveness off the driver with bigger sweet spots , bigger selection of clubs , hybrids , lob wedges etc.

 

[User20204]

Not old enough to have played 20 years ago, though know a few older guys who can play a bit. One played off Plus 3 20 years ago and plays off Plus 1 now so isn't as good, the other plays off scratch and played off Plus 1ish 20 years ago. One was off scratch for years and now struggles to play off 4. They will tell you basically there's not much difference, also the css moves. Our course was just measured again recently and the css is the same. The standard is the same.

A top player at my club 20 years ago played off of 1, he's now 58 and plays off of +2

 

[Parsaregood]

A top player at my club 20 years ago played off of 1, he's now 58 and plays off of +2

Yeah but he may have just become a better player, the css scores for competition adjust accordingly. There is no difference, if anything it's probably the higher guys who benefit more as they strike the ball more off centre more of the time therefore benefiting from more forgiving clubs. The sss of courses would have reduced each time calculated if the theory was correct. Sss scores to my knowledge have not reduced so I don't think technology has impacted the scoring very much if anything

 

[User20204]

I was merely giving you a counter to the two examples you made of good players who's hcaps has increased.

 

[Parsaregood]

I was merely giving you a counter to the two examples you made of good players who's hcaps has increased.

Naturally but these guys are in 50's now so increase is down to age and also lack of practice they do now. I'd say most golfers if they practice regularly probably get a little better over time into their late 30's early 40's. I'd certainly say that late 30s is the sort of peak years for golfers if they have played since young

 

[User20204]

Naturally but these guys are in 50's now so increase is down to age and also lack of practice they do now. I'd say most golfers if they practice regularly probably get a little better over time into their late 30's early 40's. I'd certainly say that late 30s is the sort of peak years for golfers if they have played since young

Are you just not reading what I'm posting ?

Guy at our club..

Played off of 1 20 years ago..

Plays off of +2 now...

He's 58...

Plays, doesn't practise.

 

[Parsaregood]

Are you just not reading what I'm posting ?

Guy at our club..

Played off of 1 20 years ago..

Plays off of +2 now...

He's 58...

Plays, doesn't practise.

You didn't say what age he was, he could have been 20 when he played off 1 and 40 now. Yeah age affects people differently, some stay more flexible than others, there's a guy about here who plays off 1 and he's 72, he runs marathons though so he's a fit old guy. Still there is no difference and no handicap is worse than it was as it would all standards being worse, the sss is calculated and the css worked out every comp. It all evens out, I think you will potentially see lower handicaps with the new system coming in because of the way it's worked out