Invitation day problem

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IanMcC

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A serious misdemeanour came to light yesterday at our club. A few weeks ago we had Invitation Day. A member plays with a guest in 4BBB format. The winners and second place came from the same 4 ball. Lets call one team A&B, with A being our member, and the other X&Y, with X being our member. Player B was on the card as a 26 handicapper from a nearby club. It turns out that this player was in fact someone else altogether, a 12 handicapper, but our member Player A used the name and handicap of the 26 handicapper on the card.
There will be a formal investigation once we can gather everyone together, but I'm sure Player A will have his membership terminated.
My questions are, can and should we DQ Players X and Y from the competition? Their own scorecard may be correct (but I doubt it), but Player X signed for an incorrect score as marker for A&B.
Also, should Player A have a remark added to his WHS profile, something like 'membership terminated after serious scorecard penalty'?
 
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IanMcC

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After a little digging, my take on it is that the marker should be disqualified also, under Rule 3.3b Interpretation 1

3.3b(1)/1
Marker Should Be Disqualified if He or She Knowingly Certifies a Wrong Score For Another Player

If a marker, who is a player, knowingly certifies a wrong score for a hole (including a hole score that does not include a penalty that the marker knew the player received on that hole), the marker should be disqualified under Rule 1.2a (Serious Misconduct).


In a phone call yesterday the marker admitted that he knew all the players involved, but 'did not read the name at the top, just signed the card'.
 

Slab

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Its not clear from reading through twice.. what knowledge did Player X have that player B was a 'ringer'

Player B shoots a 4, as the marker Player X records a 4 what has X done wrong?
 
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IanMcC

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Its not clear from reading through twice.. what knowledge did Player X have that player B was a 'ringer'

Player B shoots a 4, as the marker Player X records a 4 what has X done wrong?
In a phone call yesterday the marker, player X, admitted that he knew all the players involved, but 'did not read the name at the top, just signed the card'.
 

Slab

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In a phone call yesterday the marker, player X, admitted that he knew all the players involved, but 'did not read the name at the top, just signed the card'.
Thanks, yeah I see your update.
I wonder if I've always checked the name, date, handicap etc on scorecards I'm handed when marking them :unsure: Not sure its a routine for me. I just write the number of strokes/penalties

I might've been doing it wrong :eek:
 
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But the marker (X) did not sign for an incorrect score did he? He signed for the correct score i.e. the gross score on each hole shot by A or B. The fact that B was a ringer playing off the wrong handicap does not change the fact that the gross scores were recorded correctly. In my opinion you cannot disqualify X and Y on the basis that you propose.

However, if X/Y were discovered to have been aware of player B being a ringer at the time, then yes, put them in stocks and lob rotten fruit at them.
 
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IanMcC

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I suppose the problem may lie in the interpretation of 'Wrong score for another player'. All of the gross scores may indeed be correct, but the stableford points gained are incorrect as the handicap should have been 12, not 26.
 
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IanMcC

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But the marker (X) did not sign for an incorrect score did he? He signed for the correct score i.e. the gross score on each hole shot by A or B. The fact that B was a ringer does not change this and you cannot disqualify X and Y on the basis that you propose.

However, if X/Y were discovered to have been aware of player B being a ringer at the time, then yes, put them in stocks and lob rotten fruit at them.
It was clear from the phone call that Player X knew who Player B was. I have my rotten fruit ready, but under what rule should it be? Does this act come under rule 1.2, Serious Misconduct?
 
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In a phone call yesterday the marker, player X, admitted that he knew all the players involved, but 'did not read the name at the top, just signed the card'.
Now that just sounds like bull from X (the second bit)

I suppose the problem may lie in the interpretation of 'Wrong score for another player'. All of the gross scores may indeed be correct, but the stableford points gained are incorrect as the handicap should have been 12, not 26.
When you sign your card all you are signing for is the gross scores. You dont even have to work out your st'ford points or even nett score.
 

IanM

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If X knew the players, did he know the guy off 12? Would have known that he was off 12, rather than the 26? He signed for the score, (did he mean points too?) if so he was giving lots of shots to a 12 handicapper.

Surely "A" gets kicked out and do whatever can be done to ban him from all comps anywhere. X is very close to same.

I assume you clubs of the two guests have been contacted.

As we keep saying, Open Prizes need cutting right back. I am shocked when I see vouchers for several hundred pounds/holidays on offer in handicap events. It's too much of a cheats'-charter.
 
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It was clear from the phone call that Player X knew who Player B was. I have my rotten fruit ready, but under what rule should it be? Does this act come under rule 1.2, Serious Misconduct?
Yeah I think 1.2a is a good starting point. It appears that no one has acted with any sort of level of integrity in the circumstance you describe.
 
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IanMcC

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If X knew the players, did he know the guy off 12? Would have known that he was off 12, rather than the 26? He signed for the score, (did he mean points too?) if so he was giving lots of shots to a 12 handicapper.

Surely "A" gets kicked out and do whatever can be done to ban him from all comps anywhere. X is very close to same.

I assume you clubs of the two guests have been contacted.

As we keep saying, Open Prizes need cutting right back. I am shocked when I see vouchers for several hundred pounds/holidays on offer in handicap events. It's too much of a cheats'-charter.
It was the other club who notified us. Apparently the 26 handicapper was being congratulated by his mates for winning our comp! He knew nothing about it, and in fact played at his home club on the day of our comp, so he contacted their Director of Golf, who in turn contacted us.
 

IanM

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It was the other club who notified us. Apparently the 26 handicapper was being congratulated by his mates for winning our comp! He knew nothing about it, and in fact played at his home club on the day of our comp, so he contacted their Director of Golf, who in turn contacted us.
Wow. Things have a way of coming out!!
 

Neilds

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Yeah I think 1.2a is a good starting point. It appears that no one has acted with any sort of level of integrity in the circumstance you describe.
1.2a has the following example
  • Using a handicap that has been established for the purpose of providing an unfair advantage or using the round being played to establish such a handicap.
I certainly think that Player B used a handicap that was established for the purpose of providing an unfair example so it's an open and shut case imo.
 
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IanMcC

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1.2a has the following example
  • Using a handicap that has been established for the purpose of providing an unfair advantage or using the round being played to establish such a handicap.
I certainly think that Player B used a handicap that was established for the purpose of providing an unfair example so it's an open and shut case imo.
Clear for players A&B, no doubt, but can X&Y be DQd under 1.2a for simply signing the card?
 

Neilds

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Clear for players A&B, no doubt, but can X&Y be DQd under 1.2a for simply signing the card?
I would say so as they were compliant in the wrong handicap being used. This is not based on any special rules knowledge but I would like to think that X&Y would not have the balls to try and contest this ruling. It would also put a message out to local golfers that cheats will be caught and punished.
 

Slab

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I would say so as they were compliant in the wrong handicap being used. This is not based on any special rules knowledge but I would like to think that X&Y would not have the balls to try and contest this ruling. It would also put a message out to local golfers that cheats will be caught and punished.
Suppose the handicap written on the card was only out by a couple, same penalty for marker?

No way I'd know the correct handicap for everyone

(just devils wotsit)
 

Neilds

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Suppose the handicap written on the card was only out by a couple, same penalty for marker?

No way I'd know the correct handicap for everyone

(just devils wotsit)
But it wasn't just the wrong handicap - it was the wrong name ;) And X and Y knew
 
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