Invitation day problem

Tashyboy

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Reading this boils my blood. I fully understand the need to know exactly which rule to DQ them under. But bare faced cheating, I would be surprised if they would argue the toss that they have been dq under the wrong ruling anyway. Personally, they have shown no shame and Wales golf should circulate there names around every club in Wales so they can decide if they want these kind of people on there Course. This took some serious thought re cheating in a comp. It was not just one individual, and even though this is opinion it’s not there first time. Getting kicked out of a previous club endorses that. They should never swing a club again in Wales.
 

bobmac

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There is, make scores from Opens (4Ball and AM AMs) acceptable scores for handicapping then they wuld appear on the players record.
Or lower the cost of entry and make the prizes less attractive, after all, most people play Opens to play a nice course at a reduced rate compared to a green fee
 

D-S

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There is, make scores from Opens (4Ball and AM AMs) acceptable scores for handicapping then they wuld appear on the players record.
As you only need to record one score in BB or perhaps 2 in a Bowmaker then the non recorded scores would be a nett double bogey so unless 1 player does all the scoring it would serve no purpose. 4 or 5 nett double bogeys on anyone’s card will negate most potential handicap cuts.
 

wjemather

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As you only need to record one score in BB or perhaps 2 in a Bowmaker then the non recorded scores would be a nett double bogey so unless 1 player does all the scoring it would serve no purpose. 4 or 5 nett double bogeys on anyone’s card will negate most potential handicap cuts.
WHS has a mechanism for recording scores in formats where players frequently do not hole out - called Most Likely Score (MLS) - but it is not currently in use in England/Scotland/Wales and only being trialled in Ireland.
 

wjemather

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Or lower the cost of entry and make the prizes less attractive, after all, most people play Opens to play a nice course at a reduced rate compared to a green fee
This would not affect the behaviour of the extremely small minority who are sandbagging to win prizes, however small.

There are also large numbers of golfers who almost exclusively play formats/rules that are not acceptable for handicapping (whether by playing 4bbb or matchplay, or having gimmes in their regular games) so their handicaps are way off without there being any underhandedness. WHS addresses this with MLS, but CONGU (and other authorities) have not yet adopted this.
 

D-S

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WHS has a mechanism for recording scores in formats where players frequently do not hole out - called Most Likely Score (MLS) - but it is not currently in use in England/Scotland/Wales and only being trialled in Ireland.
All you need to do is look at the US system and it’s outcomes to see how ’most likely score’ is a recipe for sandbagging or vanity handicaps. This would merely exacerbate the problem of players on Opens with incorrect handicaps here. Handicap Club Opens in the US barely exist because of this and when they have member/guest handicapped tournaments they are often flighted due to the mistrust of handicaps. Not a great surprise because allowing players to effectively make a guess (or judgement call) on what they would have scored if they had holed out is of course a recipe for disaster however you apply rules to it.
 

bobmac

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This would not affect the behaviour of the extremely small minority who are sandbagging to win prizes, however small.
I don't agree.
I don't see anybody driving for a couple of hours and paying a £40 entry fee in the hope of winning a £50 voucher in the pro shop.
Plus they've drawn attention to themselves as possible sandbaggers for £10.
 

clubchamp98

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Using somebody else’s identity to gain an advantage and cheat to win prizes.
Is it fraud or even criminal.??
Any lawyers out there.

A few high profile court cases might sort it out.
But do we want that sort of publicity in the sport?
 

wjemather

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All you need to do is look at the US system and it’s outcomes to see how ’most likely score’ is a recipe for sandbagging or vanity handicaps. This would merely exacerbate the problem of players on Opens with incorrect handicaps here. Handicap Club Opens in the US barely exist because of this and when they have member/guest handicapped tournaments they are often flighted due to the mistrust of handicaps. Not a great surprise because allowing players to effectively make a guess (or judgement call) on what they would have scored if they had holed out is of course a recipe for disaster however you apply rules to it.
Most problems with how things work in the US are down to a general disregard for many of the Rules of Golf. And that isn't how MLS works.
 

clubchamp98

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I don't agree.
I don't see anybody driving for a couple of hours and paying a £40 entry fee in the hope of winning a £50 voucher in the pro shop.
Plus they've drawn attention to themselves as possible sandbaggers for £10.
This is the solution imo.
Make it not worth cheating.
 

Robster59

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I don't agree.
I don't see anybody driving for a couple of hours and paying a £40 entry fee in the hope of winning a £50 voucher in the pro shop.
Plus they've drawn attention to themselves as possible sandbaggers for £10.
Whilst I agree in principle, generally at our club the entry money is used to fund the prizes. The club gets limited revenue from the entry fee and also from food and drink sales. So the value of the prize is proportionate to the number of entries and the entry fee.
 

wjemather

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I don't agree.
I don't see anybody driving for a couple of hours and paying a £40 entry fee in the hope of winning a £50 voucher in the pro shop.
Plus they've drawn attention to themselves as possible sandbaggers for £10.
This is the solution imo.
Make it not worth cheating.
Sandbagging (and other cheating) happens without any prizes; reducing the value of prizes would have minimal impact on this problem.
 
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As you only need to record one score in BB or perhaps 2 in a Bowmaker then the non recorded scores would be a nett double bogey so unless 1 player does all the scoring it would serve no purpose. 4 or 5 nett double bogeys on anyone’s card will negate most potential handicap cuts.
That is not the case at all, there is a procedure within WHS for holes where the player has not finished the hole, which is already used in many parts of the world.

However that is not the reason it would stop the situstion outlined by the OP, if this was introduced then the substituted player would also need to be in on the fraud.
 
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