Indyref2

[IanM]

I am surprised that with both the EU and Scottish referendums (-enda? ) the economic debates seem to have been more prominent than the constitutional ones. Where in my head, I've thought "sovereignty first, then make the economics work on the back of that. But each to their own.

Hence, what I don't get is why the SNP are so keen to rid themselves of Westminster, in favour of an increasingly Federal Brussels. I thought that was probably because the EU has traditionally been "more left of centre" than Westminster, as much of Scotland has traditionally been. But, I would have thought that the EU is desperately short (even with the UK in) of countries who are "net contributors" so a devolved Scotland staying in the EU, with the rest of the UK "out" would not be too attractive to Brussels at all.

And as an Englishman who lives in Wales, a Scottish perspective on this is interesting

 

[DCB]

Hence, what I don't get is why the SNP are so keen to rid themselves of Westminster, in favour of an increasingly Federal Brussels. I thought that was probably because the EU has traditionally been "more left of centre" than Westminster, as much of Scotland has traditionally been.

I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.

 

[User62651]

I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.

Well there are 27 other nations presently joined up and several others jumping at the bit to get in so the same question could be levelled at any of them. They are all independent states but share some of their power with the mutually beneficial cooperative that is the EU (being mutually beneficial is not exclusively about money either). Scotland is not an independent state and many would like it to be, moreso in light of Brexit.

UK and EU are very different Unions.

By majority verdict England/Wales think they can do better for themselves out and in so doing are taking Scotland and Northern Ireland with them unwillingly. Time will tell on that and who knows it might be the right call despite what all the experts tell us but what do they know, they're only experts! One things for sure it won't stengthen the UK union one bit.

Worrying times.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

So was her speech inspirational or childish?

Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO

Neither really....more truthful than anything else on the day that the UK parliament probably instigated the break up the UK.
The script does read a bit better than her speech though.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Who was the other person you were walking with 😜

About 40 in the GROUP.
Generally 15 to 20 on the weekly walks. Mainly retired and a good cross section of views/social/economic status.
Basically a good sounding board.
As I said earlier, wisely we never talk politics so I was quite surprised at the anger vented towards Brexit and Trump.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

So you are saying it's ok for Remain to lie? You laugh it off as though it was inconsequential. Sorry but that is very disappointing. How can you have credibility if you won't have a balanced view of the lies both sides spouted ad nauseum.

As for a well informed debate in favour of YES in IndyRef 1. I made a point of reading the white paper drawn up in support of out. The budget had a hole in it that any halfwit could drive a horse and cart through. That hole was circa £10 billion. And what was the deficit last year? £9.2 billion.

Your the one writing alternative facts almost every time you post.

I know the white paper had holes in it. That is the point. There was a basis for a discussion and disagreement. And as far as in the EURef Remain lying - well actually I don't put inaccurate predictions of what might happen in the same basket as lies. But I didn't want that I consider Leave to have lied and Remain to have voiced worse case predictions to detract from the fact that for IndyRef there was a comprehensive (if perhaps containing huge flaws) published - and on which the YES/NO vote could reference. EURef had nothing of that sort - and so we ended in the land of 'what does Leaving the EU vote actually mean'

 

[SocketRocket]

I know the white paper had holes in it. That is the point. There was a basis for a discussion and disagreement. And as far as in the EURef Remain lying - well actually I don't put inaccurate predictions of what might happen in the same basket as lies. But I didn't want that I consider Leave to have lied and Remain to have voiced worse case predictions to detract from the fact that for IndyRef there was a comprehensive (if perhaps containing huge flaws) published - and on which the YES/NO vote could reference. EURef had nothing of that sort - and so we ended in the land of 'what does Leaving the EU vote actually mean'

Why are you bringing the EU ref into this thread?

 

[chippa1909]

I've never been able to understand that one either. If we are going for Independance and not wanting to be told what to do by Westminster, why do we want to be beholding to the European Parliament and all the joy that that brings.

Remember that Scotland can't do one single thing that Westminster can't overrule. Including dissolving our parliament.

Can the European Parliament do that?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Remember that Scotland can't do one single thing that Westminster can't overrule. Including dissolving our parliament.

Can the European Parliament do that?

Didn't realise that. Got an example of something they've overruled?

 

[chippa1909]

Didn't realise that. Got an example of something they've overruled?

I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.

 

[chippa1909]

Remember that power devolved is power retained.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.

Pretty specious argument then. Hasn't happened, won't happen.

 

[chippa1909]

Pretty specious argument then. Hasn't happened, won't happen.

Ha! You place a remarkable amount of trust in the Tories.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Ha! You place a remarkable amount of trust in the Tories.

No, I just can't stand the constant agitating and moaning about nothing from the SNP and indy fans. You're plumbing new depths with this one though!

 

[Old Skier]

PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag

Repeating what Wee Angus has already been told by the Fuhrer of the EU.

 

[chippa1909]

No, I just can't stand the constant agitating and moaning about nothing from the SNP and indy fans. You're plumbing new depths with this one though![/QUOTE

Really? "This one" was clarified in last weeks Supreme Court ruling. I wouldn't describe that as plumbing the depths!

I'd say it's quite a biggie.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Really? "This one" was clarified in last weeks Supreme Court ruling. I wouldn't describe that as plumbing the depths!

I'd say it's quite a biggie.

It's nothing, the latest in a long line of imaginary grievances.

 

[chippa1909]

So was her speech inspirational or childish?

Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO

Delivery? Really?

Gaun yersel Professor Higgins..:rofl:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Why are you bringing the EU ref into this thread?

Because some posts back another poster commented against something I had posted about the IndyRef by bringing in a comparison with the EU referendum. I've just been outlining the difference in the debates held as I see it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I never said they had. I said it is within their power to do so if they wish.

Related to this - but in the other direction.

The Sewel convention was supposed to enable the Scottish Government to have a direct veto on legislation impacting upon devolved matters. But in the case of Art50 the Supreme Court ruled that the Sewel Convention did not apply - even although it is very clear that Brexit will have a significant impact on many devolved powers and the way things are at the moment there is nothing now stopping Brexit happening. I am not sure what will happen if there is a parliamentary vote at the end of the negotiation period on the terms of the divorce and future relationship. And will the Scottish Government be able to veto the Great Repeal Bill as it will impact upon devolved powers.

From

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38731693


In July 1998, the UK government announced that a convention would be established so that Westminster would not normally legislate on devolved matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland without the consent of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The devolution settlement of that time meant that power was handed to the three nations, but sovereignty was retained by Westminster.

This undertaking was subsequently expanded, and now consent is also required for legislation on reserved matters if it would alter the powers of the devolved parliaments and ministers.

A new sub-section of the Scotland Act 2016 clearly stated: "It is recognised that the parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

But I note that it is only not normally

I actually think that the Sewel Convention should now prevent Westminster from dissolving the Scottish Parliament as clearly that would have an impact upon the devolved powers. But it may still be open to do so.