SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Did I suggest they wouldn't? I said it was an exercise in promoting Scottish Independence.
:thup:
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
You said:
I simply pointed out that the Scottish electorate are fully aware of what the SNP are up to and will judge them accordingly. They are fully aware that the SNP think that independence is that which is in the best interests of Scotland
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Interesting article by a previously solid Indyref1 NO voter who post-Brexit and as things progress has changed his mind - and the article concludes
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/john-wight/scottish-independence-is-_b_12512554.html
Scottish independence is now the last redoubt behind which everyone across the UK who believes in human solidarity, internationalism, and a multicultural society must gather to stem the rising tide of Brexit poison that threatens to drown us all.
I suspect his view may well have since strengthened as we head towards a cliff-edge Brexit - without any clue how high the cliff is and whether or not there are rocks at the base of it.
drdel
Tour Rookie
I guess you have a higher opinion of the Scottish voter than you do of the UK as a whole since you seem to believe that those who voted 'out' are intellectually challenged and you'd rather we ignored the referendum result
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
No - as usual I am being deliberately misrepresented. I have said that some who voted Leave were misinformed (by others) and that as a result their decision was - imo - misguided. Of course I think they were misguided - I voted to Remain. Me saying that about some Leave voters does not equate one little bit with them being 'intellectually challenged'. As usual those like me who state such an opinion have it twisted to fit with the Leave camps narrative that deflects and reflects any questions, observations or indeed crtiticisms back on Remain.
So for example we have the ludicrous situation where many who voted are now saying that of course they knew that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market - because the Remain camp told them so. But this is so Orwellian that Winston Smith would be proud - re-writing history to fit with the current situation where we find UK is going to have to leave the SM - which leaders of the Leave Campaign said needn't happen. Because, lest we forget, the Leave campaign told as endlessly that all this about having to leave the SM was all just part of Project Fear - and just a load of nonsense - not to be believed. Yet today it is what is being put forward as evidence that all Leavers knew we'd have to leave the SM.
Utterly bizarre.
Leavers misinformed and misguided? - on many things YES. 'intellectually challenged', 'stupid', thick'? - NO.
And I don't want the referendum result ignored - yet another misrepresentation. Do I want us to Remain in the EU? - YES, but the only way I would want that to happen would be on the basis of a referendum on the divorce agreement and future relations with the EU.
And as far as the IndyRef - at least the Scottish electorate had a 600 page YES manifesto to debate the detail of. The debate was therefore informed by that manifesto - and the BT campaign could research counter arguments to what was laid out in detail in that document. This at least made an informed debate possible - though much of it was still emotional. At least the information was there. For the EU referendum there was very little of this nature provided and hence the debate was I fear largely uninformed. After all as we heard - who needed experts with facts.
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Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag
I agree that all Leavers were lied too but so were all of Remain voters. So many (alternative) facts were supplied by both sides... I think its sad that you don't incorporate that in your ruminations. You're blinded by your desire for a particular outcome, one I share, but I'm open to the fact that both sides were disingenuous.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But the Remain camp did not lie on this specific aspect - and it is a very crucial one - almost the most crucial one. My point is that today Leave voters are saying they knew that the UK would have to leave the SM - because the Remain camp told them.
This is nuts - but I am hearing it all the time. Before the vote Leave were saying that that was rubbish - that it was Project Fear, so that cannot now be used by Leave votes as evidence that they knew. They are re-writing history to fit with the fact that we are having to leave the SM - and it doesn't seem we have much option give our position on immigration.
Anyway - I have strayed this into the Art50 discussion - apologies.
My point on IndyRef cf EURef was that for the former there was a documented statement of YES case on which debate could be based and revolve. And because of that I think the IndyRef was relatively well informed - whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side - on which debate could be based.
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Val
Ryder Cup Winner
PM tells Wee Angus in HoC that Scotland voting for independence will take it out of the EU......[I blame jet lag
Of course it does, why wouldn't it? Scotland is out of the EU with or without Independence
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
How do you know that?
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
The UK has voted to leave so Scotland is out. Scotland votes for independence and leaves the U.K. Why would it be part of the EU when as a country on its own it has no EU membership?
It's not that hard really.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Hmm, a nice balanced view there. That is a very bigoted statement of the first order and he should be ashamed of it. I can guess what you would be saying if a similar was made from the other side of the debate.
P.S. You are appearing to become somewhat paranoid and increasingly bitter in your posts. Are you alright?
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Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Went out with my walking group after missing few weeks.
Surprised how many were really angry about Brexit and Trump.
Normally politics is a big no with us.
Surprised how many were really angry about Brexit and Trump.
Normally politics is a big no with us.
So you are saying it's ok for Remain to lie? You laugh it off as though it was inconsequential. Sorry but that is very disappointing. How can you have credibility if you won't have a balanced view of the lies both sides spouted ad nauseum.
As for a well informed debate in favour of YES in IndyRef 1. I made a point of reading the white paper drawn up in support of out. The budget had a hole in it that any halfwit could drive a horse and cart through. That hole was circa £10 billion. And what was the deficit last year? £9.2 billion.
Your the one writing alternative facts almost every time you post.
Who was the other person you were walking with 😜
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
His left foot.
Leftie
Tour Winner
I must admit that I haven't bothered to read most of this thread as, to be quite honest, I couldn't now give a stuff what Scotland do so this may be out of context in which case I'm happy to be shot down - but, this did catch my eye from Hobbit's reply quoting Hogie ......
" whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity (sp) on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side "
If there was nothing substantive produced by either side, how can the Leave side be special in producing more nothing?? Come on Hogie, I thought that you were better than that.
Just thought I would be a bit pedantic before Foxy rode into town. :ears:
" whereas the EURef debate was subject to lies and disingenuity (sp) on both sides as there was nothing substantive produced by either side - but especially the Leave side "
If there was nothing substantive produced by either side, how can the Leave side be special in producing more nothing?? Come on Hogie, I thought that you were better than that.
Just thought I would be a bit pedantic before Foxy rode into town. :ears:
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
This lady speaks for me.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-parodies-trainspotting-speech-in-brexit-debate-1-4355521
http://www.scotsman.com/news/snp-mp-parodies-trainspotting-speech-in-brexit-debate-1-4355521
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Val
Ryder Cup Winner
So was her speech inspirational or childish?
Her content may or may not be relevant but her delivery is shocking IMO
