chippa1909
Head Pro
That'll end well.
That'll end well.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
It ended the way it ended. You know the drill, you let the people have a referendum, they decide and the Government accept the decision. Is there some other way?
chippa1909
Head Pro
We'll just wait and see.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
It will end the way the U.K. Government see fit. Like it or not they have the controlling say.
D
Deleted member 18588
Guest
What?
Basic rate Income Tax of 30%.
As you are fond of saying; Aye right!
And unable to fulfil the EU's economic tests for membership.
chippa1909
Head Pro
And there, in a nutshell, is the problem.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
chippa1909
Head Pro
Ah! We're in the editing other peoples posts stage.
Does that make you feel powerful?
Like, I bet you wish you could do that in real life.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
There in a nutshell is democracy you mean
chippa1909
Head Pro
Rule Britannia..
Chippa posted 3 consecutive posts about the money but then changed tack when he was incapable of supporting his argument. Aye right.
And I agree with you, ouch, it shouldn't be about money. It should be about self determination. Unfortunately, if it goes the way of the last Indyref it will come down to money and fear. Aye right.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
It amuses me that the Indy ref should be about self determination, and not about money, but when the same is said of Brexit, all we get from the antis is money arguments.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
The bit that is difficult for me to understand is.......... why you think "virtually everyone" wants Scotland to stay. Aside from the politicians that don't want their legacy to be that they broke up the UK the strongest feelings I've come across with regard to Scottish independence is probably apathy.
Yes there are some that would like to see Scotland stay and equally some that want Scotland to leave. But the vast majority just don't care either way.
I'm with Colchester. Believing virtually everyone wants Scotland to stay is hugely delusional. Certain politicians may want that, the general public either couldn't care less or are fed up of the moaning and want Scotland to leave. Believe it if you want to feel "special" but it is not the reality. Be part of the team or leave but put up or shut up.
I should clarify by the way. I think the UK works well as it is. The sum of the parts is great than the individual constituents etc. However if Scotland wants to go it alone then feel free to leave. At the moment chunks of Scotland are behaving like the troublemaker in a team, the Kevin Pieterson. Understandably that riles the other members and frankly the more Kevin kicks off the more the rest of the team will want "him" to leave. That's human nature. We know not everyone wants independence but we are getting a constant drone of whinging and whining and that inevitably causes discourse. I feel sorry for the Scots who want to remain within the UK. If we are finding it tough south of the border listening to all this again, how hard must it be to hear it constantly north of the border.
I should clarify by the way. I think the UK works well as it is. The sum of the parts is great than the individual constituents etc. However if Scotland wants to go it alone then feel free to leave. At the moment chunks of Scotland are behaving like the troublemaker in a team, the Kevin Pieterson. Understandably that riles the other members and frankly the more Kevin kicks off the more the rest of the team will want "him" to leave. That's human nature. We know not everyone wants independence but we are getting a constant drone of whinging and whining and that inevitably causes discourse. I feel sorry for the Scots who want to remain within the UK. If we are finding it tough south of the border listening to all this again, how hard must it be to hear it constantly north of the border.
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chippa1909
Head Pro
Please lobby your politicians who want Scotland to stay and try to change their minds then.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
It's quite easy with you. Put a bit of bait on the line drop it in the water and 'SNAP'
Sweep
Journeyman Pro
It pains me that we are still talking about this. Naive I know but after the last time I thought that the issue was resolved and we wouldn't have to put up with anymore of Spock and the Cranky woman. How wrong I was. Losing only made them stronger. As to why, well you would have to ask the Scottish people.
I am a strong advocate of the Union, but even I find myself hoping the Scots just go now. Enough of the moaning and whinging. They get as good if not a better deal than the rest of us but if I am honest I don't think they will ever be happy. Whilst I would like to think the majority of Scots don't agree with the SNP anti South, anti democratic diatribe and do not share their back of a fag packet, leap in the dark economics we have to accept that they keep voting SNP. I am hoping that this is due to the collapse and lack of credibility of Labour. Let's face it, if you are on the left and live north of the border it's Hobson's choice who to vote for between Labour and the SNP, but the message the rest of the Union is getting is that the Scots want out.
I just hope that when they go and their economy goes belly up we don't end up paying for it all, but I fear we will.
I am a strong advocate of the Union, but even I find myself hoping the Scots just go now. Enough of the moaning and whinging. They get as good if not a better deal than the rest of us but if I am honest I don't think they will ever be happy. Whilst I would like to think the majority of Scots don't agree with the SNP anti South, anti democratic diatribe and do not share their back of a fag packet, leap in the dark economics we have to accept that they keep voting SNP. I am hoping that this is due to the collapse and lack of credibility of Labour. Let's face it, if you are on the left and live north of the border it's Hobson's choice who to vote for between Labour and the SNP, but the message the rest of the Union is getting is that the Scots want out.
I just hope that when they go and their economy goes belly up we don't end up paying for it all, but I fear we will.
U
User62651
Guest
Some fair points there and I think you could park a lot of these issues squarely at David Cameron's door, he misjudged 2 referendums very badly, came out with all the wrong rhetoric at the wrong time, austerity politics was disastrous, shockingly bad politician playing games for his own political gain. May can only be better.
Brexit is so huge for Scotland and appears horribly misjudged, ill-informed, xenophobic and inward looking that something has to be done even if its just sabre rattling from Holyrood. Scotland does/did well out of EU and needs EU immigrants, feeling is without it UK will never support Scotland like EU does. Feeling is EU doesn't look down its nose at you and tell you to shut-up as the should be deferrent annoying little partner, Scots have a political voice at the moment and powers that be down south dont like it. Despite its faults EU treats all members fairly equally.
Even after Maggie's carnage through former industrial heartlands and poll tax nonsense the nationalist vote only ran at around 20-25% because Labour were strong. They are now going nowhere under Corbyn so look set to stay down in Scotland too and with leaders like Dugdale is it any wonder?
SNP have filled a Labour vacuum, played a canny political game with free this and that for everyone and stood up for Scots, that's undeniable, it is popularism politics and I think they'll get found out at some stage medium term but with their anti Tory rhetoric they'll continue to do well short term and could win Indyref2 should it get called. If May blocked that it will be seen as undemocratic and only drive a bigger wedge in there.
I feel if Labour were still a credible force and led by someone like Tony Blair this wouldn't have ever come about imo - neither Indyref nor Brexit. Not a Blair fan especially and Lefties might not like it but a successful centrist Labour party is essential for the UK to survive I think.
Val
Ryder Cup Winner
100% spot on.
Again agree but not wholly. I agree that Scotland is better off within the EU but for it to be as is it has to be part of the union. My reasoning? Scotland would now have to apply as a new member therefore a new member will have to fit a number of criteria and take on a number of criteria and one of those is the Euro, I cannot see that currency being welcomed with open arms by the Scottish people. The EU ship as is known now has sailed.
100% spot on, the SNP are almost the "trendy" vote here just now. The do have some decent policies but how they spend public money really needs to be looked at in depth, their level of spending cannot be justified.
:thup:
