Foxholer
Blackballed
Or that the Course is likely to have a low CR, as an 'easy' course. Same as having SSS 2+ shots below par in 'old money'.
D
Deleted member 25172
Guest
Don’t actually know how many divisions we have. But to me it has never made any sense that the actual best golfer of the day isn’t rewarded besides in the club championship. All for a lowest gross should be within the monthly medal.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
At ours, all board comps and weekly medals or stablefords (not monthly at ours) have a lowest gross prize equal to second place. No divisions - although I have known it done occasionally for things like Captain's Day.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Course rating is 69.7 on a par of 71....
I still say if mid 40s is winning every time then something is wrong ..
wjemather
Well-known member
But you said that isn't happening at your course, so clearly nothing is wrong
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
Nothing to do with my course...talking about Phil's course Leighton Buzzard...
wjemather
Well-known member
Phil hasn't described anything unusual. The divisions could probably be better setup, which would protect low handicappers from exceptional scores by improving higher handicappers, but it seems that it is the expectations of some players that are faulty. Two/three under handicap really shouldn't be expecting to win anything in large field closed club comps.
I think we have 4 divisions and a scratch prize section for every comp.
Foxholer
Blackballed
Course rating is 1 below par and Slope 121 indicates not overly difficult and maybe a bit easier than most.
A 15-capper CH is 16; PH (CH*.95) back to 15. So not anything WHS has caused imo - at least in what would be Divs 1 & 2.
Weather? Course condition? Or maybe just the not uncommon whingeing by low-cappers. Something else to 'blame' on lockdown/Work from home (so more practice time available?).
Changing to 3 Divs would seem a good ida though.
Bratty
Princess Pouty (Queen of Fish Lips)
We have two for medals and stablefords: up to 12, and 13 and over. Yesterday's medal was won with a 67 playing off 9, 2nd was 75 off 6 and 3rd was 73 off 3.
No lowest gross prize.
No lowest gross prize.
Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
Why is there a need for divisions when WHS advocates "a fair and equal game" for all? 
wjemather
Well-known member
"Equitable" not equal, and when applied at the individual or small field level (hence 95% in stroke play comps).Why is there a need for divisions when WHS advocates "a fair and equal game" for all?
And the reason for recommending divisions is that no handicap system can account for the variance in expected score ranges while maintaining equity - as field size increases, so does the probability of a higher handicapper returning a score that is realistically unattainable for a (very) low handicapper.
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Voyager EMH
Slipper Wearing Plucker of Pheasants
We had two separate comps yesterday. Board comp for 19 PH and over. Non-board comp stableford for the rest.
Board comp was won with 38 points, 38 second and 37 third.
Lower handicaps comp was won with 41 points, 38 second and 37 third.
This is merely one comp, I know, but a fairly usual result at our place. I don't know of anyone at ours who feels a strong need for divisions.
Board comp was won with 38 points, 38 second and 37 third.
Lower handicaps comp was won with 41 points, 38 second and 37 third.
This is merely one comp, I know, but a fairly usual result at our place. I don't know of anyone at ours who feels a strong need for divisions.
Low handicappers also miss the point that their probability of contending in a competition is much better than the higher handicapper, and, that there are far more high handicappers than low ones.
The cat1 golfer wont shoot 45pts, and feels aggrieved when a high handicapper does as he knows he cannot, but the low man is contending for beating his handicap much more frequently and so increasing his chances of winning or a prize on that element.
They also have a sense of it always being high hcs winning. Or at least higher than they are. But so it should be - that element doesnt change the individual low mans chances at all.
The system is sufficiently equitable. Categories bias prizes towards the low men unfairly, and comes from their agitation, based on their misunderstanding. Categories should be resisted as an unnecessary distortion of the WHS.
The cat1 golfer wont shoot 45pts, and feels aggrieved when a high handicapper does as he knows he cannot, but the low man is contending for beating his handicap much more frequently and so increasing his chances of winning or a prize on that element.
They also have a sense of it always being high hcs winning. Or at least higher than they are. But so it should be - that element doesnt change the individual low mans chances at all.
The system is sufficiently equitable. Categories bias prizes towards the low men unfairly, and comes from their agitation, based on their misunderstanding. Categories should be resisted as an unnecessary distortion of the WHS.
Exactly. There isnt a need.Why is there a need for divisions when WHS advocates "a fair and equal game" for all?
SteveW86
Head Pro
47 points won out stableford comp today, sadly it was not me who scored it.
wjemather
Well-known member
In isolation the low handicapper has a very small advantage, but the more higher handicappers they are competing against their chances diminish more rapidly than the chances of the high handicapper due to the potential for an unattainable (for them) score. Against a field of 99 18+ handicappers, a scratch golfer has a far smaller than 1/100 chance because of this, whereas the 18+ handicappers all have about the same marginally better than 1/100 chance.
Under UHS, lows would generally be expected to play to handicap more frequently than highs but with WHS, all players (improvers and decliners aside) can expect to play to their handicap or better approximately once every five rounds on average - due to the nature of the best 8 from 20 average determining the index.
Divisions (not categories) continue to be recommended by the unions, as they were under UHS, and give more players a chance of winning a prize by reducing the effect of these exceptional scores that no handicap system can account for.
D
Deleted member 15344
Guest
The thread took some interesting and some unsurprising directions with a sprinkling of arrogance and pendentary from the expected sources
It seems some don’t want to see the players who play the best golf to be rewarded for it
But the highlighted part in your post is close to be the most laughable- do you really think removing categories is the fairest way to go and that the handicap system is robust enough to be the levelling force it should be ?
looking at every comp we have had this season without divisions would have been won by someone playing 18 handicap and above - and players 10 and below not even getting into the top 10
The handicap system does not level up the field - there are far too many variables for any system to be able to do that - so handicap categories is the next best thing that can be done
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Very similar here Alan. Intrigued to know where clubs have divisions, does the overall winner, no matter the handicap, take the trophy? If it is just the prize money effectively in divisions, that would be less dosh in the pockets of the low handicapped players at my place.
Imurg
The Grinder Of Pars (Semi Crocked)
If it's a standard Medal or Stableford then the prize pot is kept in the divisions - that's why they try to even out the numbers as much as possible.
In a "Board" comp, the prize pot is still kept in divisions but the overall winner gets their name on the board...
When Fragger won a Board comp the other week, he got less than the winner of Div1 as there were more in that division...but he won the overall comp so gets his name in lights - fortunately it's in a dark corner of the clubhouse
