How Do You Make Comps Fair For Everyone

[GB72]

I was playing with a 14 handicapper today in a comp who was bemoaning the fact that he only really entered to keep his handicap accurate but really never stood a chance of winning anything and he had a point. At my club there is always a higher handicapper posting a winning score in the 40s for a stapleford or in the low 60's net in a medal. His handicap is dead right for him so he is never going to be able to compete with that. His ablity is also not high enough to pick up the lowest gross prizes that generally go to those in the low single figures. By my reckoning he cannot be the only one in that position, someone who can play to withing a shot or 2 of their handicap and in doing that has no chance of winning anything. If the handicapping system works, and maybe it does not, surely these sort of scores should not be posted every week. Is .3 or .4 off enough for each shot under the handicap or is there a way of making the playing field in comps more even? WE do have divisions in some of the bigger comps but I am thinking about the normal, run of the mill, weekly comps.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm not sure what the reason is but we never seem to have a really silly score winning particularly medals. We might have a nett 66 or so (-4) but not any of these 8 or 9 under you see at some clubs. Admittedly in the stableford it might get towards 40 or 41 particularly in division 2 and 3 (div 2 = 12-18 and div 3 = 19+) if someone has a good day but again it is pretty unusual

I know from the newsletter I get from the club HID works at that 43 points is the norm to win anything and net 64 or less is required to win a medal. Maybe there course just plays easier (we have 6 pretty tough par 3's which protect the scores).

I guess the only heart you can take is those that do have a silly score do get cut accordingly. The only time I guess it becomes an issue is for the Gold Letter events which are the most prestigious and which do normally go to mid-high handicappers as they are winner take all and not divisionalised like a medal or stableford.

 

[Imurg]

You can't.

Every conceivable way of trying to level the playing field has a flaw somewhere down the line.

I think most are agreed that it is far easier for a high handicapper to shoot well below handicap than a low single figure. That's the way it is. I think most high handicappers screw up 2 or 3 holes badly - messing up a medal round but not necessarily a stableford round. Eliminate those bad holes and substitute bogeys and you've got 45 points or a nett 60.
Its the what we've got until some bright spark comes up with something better and/or more complicated (tricky!)

 

[Swinger]

Abolish the H/C system and play everything off scratch!!

You'd probably be amazed how fast some people improve to compete and how many of the high single figures to mid teens keep up with the lower handicappers when there is no handicap to protect.

In all honesty though like Imurg said, you can't.

 

[Golfmmad]

I can only speak from experience of playing in comps at my club. The players that play well on the day will get cut, whether they are low or high handicappers, in Stableford or Medal play. I recently had 40 points and didn't get cut. I don't see how anybody can complain about not getting cut.The only way is to play well, regardless of whether you are single figures or high handicap surely? How can that be unfair?

Golfmmad.

 

[GB72]

Perhaps 'unfair' is the wrong term. What I mean is that a large section a my club really have nothing to play for in comps as a top 3 finish generally needs 42 points plus and they have not quite got the game to aim for the lowest gross.

Hanicaps are adjusted after every comp but it may be that the current system for cuts is not harsh enough. What would be the problem with, lets say, cutting handicaps by a shot for every shot under par until you get down to 18 then going down to .3 per shot. Would certainly level the playing field a bit quicker.

 

[rickg]

I agree that above a certain figure ( say 18 or 20), then the cut should be more severe. I would agree that a 1 shot cut for every shot under par would get those who rip up the course to a more realistic handicap. If a 28 H/C can shoot 8 under his handicap, then stick him off 20...simples.

For my money you see too many stupid scores regularly winning competitions, and I don't care what the CONGU myths web page says!!

 

[scottbrown]

To be fair I would have agreed with you up until recently.
I shot 42 points off 14. Got beaten by someone who shot 47 points. I was thinking bloody high handicappers. Until..........

Our pro told me it was a 3 handicap who had shot a course record 64.
So it's not just high handicaps that can go low

 

[HughJars]

I'm sorry, but a 14 handicapper has every chance of shooting in the 40s s/ford, or low 60s in a medal.

In fact your "teen" handicappers are probably the most dangerous of all, they have some ability to get round, and it just needs a day where they have half a dozen pars, couple of birdies and no double bogies, and they wallop in a massive score.

 

[Golfmmad]

I see where you're coming from.

Is it not the case with every club golfer that plays regularly in Stableford and Medal comps? Over the years as their handicaps have come down and had their fair share of winning competitions. Apart from "Bandits" of course, isn't that how it evolves?

A case in point:

A young lad at my course, started playing 18 months ago as a junior with a 36 handicap. Because he showed a lot of promise, and our clubs policy of bringing Juniors on, he was allowed to play in our comps with a 28 handicap.
And of course he won quite a few times as his handicap began to come down very rapidly.

He's now a single figure golfer with a handicap of around 8.
I can almost guarantee that he won't be winning anywhere near as many comps now as it gets increasingly harder to get cut.

And that's how it goes on, the challenge then is to maintain their handicaps and forget about winning comps, and leave the winning to the improving players.

I don't include myself in the above as I don't practice and happily play only once a week. So any handicap reduction will be a slow process.


Golfmmad.

 

[RGDave]

I'm sorry, but a 14 handicapper has every chance of shooting in the 40s s/ford, or low 60s in a medal.

In fact your "teen" handicappers are probably the most dangerous of all, they have some ability to get round, and it just needs a day where they have half a dozen pars, couple of birdies and no double bogies, and they wallop in a massive score.

There is a lot of truth in this. Apparently, the winning score averages at 5-6 under par (41-42 points presumably).
Whilst I can only dream of making 42 points, I do believe that the 12-16 players are in a good position to win.
Clearly, every club gets the odd 8 under now and again from a high h'cap, but at mine it's very rare.

66 won our last medal and 43 points the recent stableford. Both were off about 14. Usually, 40 will do it.

The 43 was a great knock.....there were no players within 4 shots.

 

[USER1999]

Last Saturday our swindle was won by a 19 h/capper with 47 points. I cab only dream of such a score.

 

[GB72]

I may be wrong but I am sure that when I started out I was told that you should be able to play to our handicap about once in every 4 rounds. That being the case then 36 points should be a good score not a score in the bottom half of the leaderboard.

Just to point out that I am by no means a mid teens handicapper and am actually having a go at myself a bit here as well. Coming down from my original 27 handicap I won loads of comps but never felt the cuts that I received were severe enough. When I play in my regular group in a friendly game I play of 18 but I put cards in every week and my actual handicap has just come down to 20.

 

[Imurg]

I'm sorry, but a 14 handicapper has every chance of shooting in the 40s s/ford, or low 60s in a medal.

In fact your "teen" handicappers are probably the most dangerous of all, they have some ability to get round, and it just needs a day where they have half a dozen pars, couple of birdies and no double bogies, and they wallop in a massive score.

There is a lot of truth in this. I do believe that the 12-16 players are in a good position to win.

Just done some analysis from Howdidido.

At my place this year -

7 comps won by Div 1 (0-12.4)
11 comps won by Div 2 (12.5-18.4)
9 comps won by Div 3 (18.5-28)

Most of our comps are divisionalised but the best score is as shown.
Best Medal nett - 60 from Div 2
Best Stableford - 47 from Div 3

 

[Region3]

Our medal yesterday was won with a nett 69.

The one last Tuesday, albeit it in very windy conditions, I came 4th with nett 74! 65 won it (improving junior) but that was the only one under 70.

Normally, low 40's will win a stableford, or mid-high 60's for a medal.

It's only pairs comps that you need mid 40's to be in with a good shout.

 

[pokerjoke]

We play a roll up every saturday and between 20 and 30 of the same people turn up regulary,as far as i know most[and it should be all]put there cards in so handicaps are kept on top of,almost every week someone different wins which is how it should be.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

40-41 pts should be attainable by everyone if their h'cap is correct. SSS at our place means I have to score 37pts to play to my h'cap so it's only 3 or 4 below h'cap which if I chip and putt well is well within my reach. 44 or 45 points might be achievable once in a blue moon but I've never done it and you shouldn't see it often.

This is a difficult on to get right, it is easier for high h'cappers to shoot in the 40s than low h'cappers but equally I know that I am more than capable of rocking up on Saturday and shooting 6 or 7 below h'cap if I can keep my mind out of it.

The only way to ensure the best golfer on the day wins is to play off scratch but that eliminates most of the field and would reduce the number of entrants as a lot of folk wouldn't bother if they had no chance. Like a lot of people here I play to lower my h'cap not to win and would actually get more pleasure from getting lowest gross than winning.

The current system has it's flaws but until someone comes up with something better, we're stuck with it.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Had a nett 73 (+3) yesterday with 4 double bogies so a nett 69 or so should have been on the cards. It was a tough day at my place with a very gusty wind and several par 3's including the 186 yard 13th (SI17 !!!) were straight into the wind. I hit a full on 5 wood and only reached front right just off the green. OK a thinned chip didn't help but the point is our 3's are all hard and so it helps protect our scores. I think the best in yesterday when I left (late) was a 68 and so it was ahrdly ripped apart. Best on Saturday in ideal conditions was only a nett 66.

Some players will have a career day and I've no qualms with that. They shoot the lights out and get cut accordingly. In my opinion its all about my ball and my score. If I shoot as low as I can and don't win I'll enjoy playing well (especially as I know most weeks I won't make the buffer) and if I get a top 3 and some vouchers then so much the better. You can't control what anyone else is doing. I never go into an event thinking I can't win. I'll do what I can and take it from there.

 

[Ethan]

Making comps "fair" to everyone is impossible, because it would require everyone to have stable and accurate handicaps, and for the comps to be fair to all handicap groups. At least the first does not happen. The problem has several elements. One is that fast improving golfers' handicaps lag behind their real ability, so they have a period of beating handicap regularly, and sometimes by large amounts. Secondly, higher handicap golfers have more wildly variable scores, so on occasions when a 15 handicap gets it all together and shots 6 over par, it is very difficult for a low player to beat that. Of course, the same 15 handicap might shoot 100 the next week. Third, some people massage their handicaps for big comps - sandbaggers. It can be very difficult to prevent this entirely.

Some factors attempt to correct for these, for example 3/4 handicaps, because higher players tend to have more extreme scores, but none are perfect.

 

[jammydodger]

When I left yesterday 41 pts was leading with 37 in 2nd place. These were posted by early starters before the rain came in about lunchtime , which was exactly the time I tee'd off . I remarked to my partner that shooting anything over 31/32 points would give me real satisfaction as the weather frankly was awful/hideous/atrocious etc etc

As it turned out we both shot 34 points (off 4 and 7), absolutely thrilled with the score but disappointed that it involved several 3 putts which is very unlike me , but hey the greens were playing bumpy after the heavy traffic and it was very windy and wet.

We dont usually get vast amounts of good scoring at our place as its a tough course and generally speaking people play off the right h/c. We have had 47 and 46 point winners this year (definitely players who should have lower h/c's but they havnt been caught up with yet).

But if you take someone like myself who plays off 4 as an example. I usually play to my h/c and occasionally a couple under or a couple over. I'm not a player who shoots bad scores very often and consequently i'm leading our OOM again this year after wining it last year.

My point is that shooting your h/c at our place will always get you a top 10 finish and quite often will get you a top 5 , sometimes you will even win with level h/c.