hcp and css relationship.

[splashtryagain]

Was wondering about this after a post in the get to scratch thread. Let's say we have two 10 hcps from two courses one where the css is two under par and one where it is two over par. Is either one a better golfer or does the calculation of css take the difference out of play. As far as I can see for the purposes of lowering their hcp on a comp day one has to play to 10 hcp (for.4 cut) the other 4 under. Does this mean the latter is better or the course is easier?

 

[Ethan]

I would say that for most courses, the players are equally good and the courses are easier or harder than one another. That is what the handicap system is supposed to achieve, so you can take your handicap to another course.

For courses at the extremes, say Carnoustie at SSS of 74 or 75, that one is more than 3 or 4 shots harder than the average course at SSS 71.

 

[RGDave]

This topic interests me time after time. In all likelihood the two players off 10 will be a similar standard.
I used to play a chap who's home course was a very tricky links (quite famous) and I never beat him, not once, in many years....didn't matter where we played, he was better. I don't mind saying so.

 

[MashieNiblick]

Apologies in advance for long post, but it is an interesting topic.

SSS takes into account the difficulty of the course using a range of factors and is based on how a typical scratch player would score (hence Standard Scratch Score). That is modified by CSS (Competition Scratch Score) which takes into account the playing conditions on the day of the competition based on the scores returned. There are various views as to how accurate or fair these calculations are but its what we have.

To find out how SSS and CSS are calculcated try here

http://www.englishgolfunion.org/showpage.asp?code=0001000200090005

http://www.congu.com/faqs/css.pdf

The EGU guide to Course Rating and calculating SSS is really very interesting and enlightening.

You have to forget par when it comes to handicaps and think SSS/CSS.

Imagine 2 courses

Course A, Par 70, SSS 68. On this course a scratch player is expected to be able to go around in 2 under par. That is because the course basically has some easier holes. When that is translated to the 10 handicapper those easy holes mean he or she will be able to play their normal game and go round in 8 over par. e.g. over the round he should be able to make 10 pars and 8 bogies. Only 8 over par but 10 over SSS.

Course B, Par 70, SSS 72. This is a much more difficult course than course A. Accordingly the same scratch player is expected to go round in 2 over par. Translated to the 10 handicapper he will need to go round in 12 over par to play to his handicap. I think of it as there being 4 fewer holes on which the 10 h/capper is expected to make par as compared to course A. 12 over par but only 10 over SSS

In theory playing 2 under par at course A requires the same degree of skill as playing 2 over at course B. Course A may have lots of short, easy par 4s or 5s, course B may have some beasts. The 10 handicapper at course A is not necessarily a better player than the 10 handicapper at course B even though he scores better relative to par. In theory they should be the same standard.

In practice, as RGD suggests, the player at course B, the harder course, may be the better player even though his scores relative to par are higher. As Ethan indicates some of the Championship Courses (Carnoustie, Royal St Georges, etc) have SSS's well over their par and arguably someone who plays those types of courses regularly might be a better player than someone with the same handicap at a nice gentle short inland course with a lower SSS where every par 4 is a drive and a short iron and all the par 5s are reachable in 2, despite the fact that SSS should even things up.

Bit longwinded and rambly but that's my understanding of it all and I hope it helps a bit.