Has Equality Harmed Womens Golf. Peter Alliss Thinks So

[Sweep]

I haven't watched the clip, but I would have to say that sadly equalities has harmed women's golf. Initially I was very much in favour of it and on the face if it it all looked great and whilst equality in everything should be a right, in golf this legislation actually did a disservice to the very people it was designed to protect.
As someone else posted, the typical membership offered to ladies pre - legislation was a different product to that offered to men. Of course this was due to historical reasons, but equalities prevented clubs from offering ladies a different product at a cheaper price and as a result women typically ended up paying more to get less.
One of the reasons for this is that very few clubs play mixed comps. (Not many sports in general play mixed comps). Most clubs have significantly more men than women and therefore no club is going to tell the male majority they can't have their comp on the traditional weekend day. So, whilst most women still can't play in the men's comp at weekend they now have to pay the same subs, probably electing to go 5 or 6 day with the men (mainly retired) who choose not to play at weekend. As most women work now, this doesn't fit with their lifestyle.
Alliss is quite correct. Female golf participation is down 27%. Remember, this reduction has a greater impact on a women's section at the vast majority of clubs as the ladies section is usually much smaller to start with.
I do think and hope over time the situation will correct itself. In my experience most clubs are really struggling to come up with solutions as this law really tied their hands behind their backs, but with flexible memberships etc and changing perceptions, hopefully things will get better.

 

[MadAdey]

Golf had to fall inline with equality guidelines, it was only a matter of time. With more women going out to work now they are wanting to play at weekends so they should expect to play the full rate that men do.

As has been already been highlighted why didn't clubs just alter their membership structure to 5 day and 7 day memberships, not memberships aimed at one set gender. I'm not sure, but how many clubs still adopt the old tradition of ladies morning on a Wednesday still.

I think ink there is a huge untapped market of ladies under 30 that need getting into golf to fill up the ladies sections and increase revenue overall for the club. Not sure how to attract the to the game though. Maybe if more of the female celebrities played it would make it cool and appeal to them more.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I haven't watched the clip, but I would have to say that sadly equalities has harmed women's golf. Initially I was very much in favour of it and on the face if it it all looked great and whilst equality in everything should be a right, in golf this legislation actually did a disservice to the very people it was designed to protect.
As someone else posted, the typical membership offered to ladies pre - legislation was a different product to that offered to men. Of course this was due to historical reasons, but equalities prevented clubs from offering ladies a different product at a cheaper price and as a result women typically ended up paying more to get less.
One of the reasons for this is that very few clubs play mixed comps. (Not many sports in general play mixed comps). Most clubs have significantly more men than women and therefore no club is going to tell the male majority they can't have their comp on the traditional weekend day. So, whilst most women still can't play in the men's comp at weekend they now have to pay the same subs, probably electing to go 5 or 6 day with the men (mainly retired) who choose not to play at weekend. As most women work now, this doesn't fit with their lifestyle.
Alliss is quite correct. Female golf participation is down 27%. Remember, this reduction has a greater impact on a women's section at the vast majority of clubs as the ladies section is usually much smaller to start with.
I do think and hope over time the situation will correct itself. In my experience most clubs are really struggling to come up with solutions as this law really tied their hands behind their backs, but with flexible memberships etc and changing perceptions, hopefully things will get better.

And this is the problem. Golf clubs are attempting to fulfill the letter of the law, not the spirit, and failing because of it. Adopting the spirit of it, and offering full 7 day access to both sexes would mean that neither sex would see the product as overpriced, because they get the same thing. This means mixed comps on a saturday, rather than just saying "sorry ladies, it's the mens comp, always has been, no tees for you".

 

[FairwayDodger]

I haven't watched the clip, but I would have to say that sadly equalities has harmed women's golf. Initially I was very much in favour of it and on the face if it it all looked great and whilst equality in everything should be a right, in golf this legislation actually did a disservice to the very people it was designed to protect.
As someone else posted, the typical membership offered to ladies pre - legislation was a different product to that offered to men. Of course this was due to historical reasons, but equalities prevented clubs from offering ladies a different product at a cheaper price and as a result women typically ended up paying more to get less.
One of the reasons for this is that very few clubs play mixed comps. (Not many sports in general play mixed comps). Most clubs have significantly more men than women and therefore no club is going to tell the male majority they can't have their comp on the traditional weekend day. So, whilst most women still can't play in the men's comp at weekend they now have to pay the same subs, probably electing to go 5 or 6 day with the men (mainly retired) who choose not to play at weekend. As most women work now, this doesn't fit with their lifestyle.
Alliss is quite correct. Female golf participation is down 27%. Remember, this reduction has a greater impact on a women's section at the vast majority of clubs as the ladies section is usually much smaller to start with.
I do think and hope over time the situation will correct itself. In my experience most clubs are really struggling to come up with solutions as this law really tied their hands behind their backs, but with flexible memberships etc and changing perceptions, hopefully things will get better.

I agree with much of this, if not the actual conclusion. Equality isn't the problem so much as poor implementation and sections within clubs more interested in what's best for them rather than best for the good of the club and the game in the long term.

Women's participation has dropped off, but so has men's. Worryingly, though, the decline is more pronounced in the women's game and from a lower base.

 

[Sweep]

And this is the problem. Golf clubs are attempting to fulfill the letter of the law, not the spirit, and failing because of it. Adopting the spirit of it, and offering full 7 day access to both sexes would mean that neither sex would see the product as overpriced, because they get the same thing. This means mixed comps on a saturday, rather than just saying "sorry ladies, it's the mens comp, always has been, no tees for you".

I agree. But unfortunately clubs aren't allowed to fulfil the spirit of the law. You could argue most were before legislation. They were warned that if they did not fully comply a challenge under the law could result in a heavy fine. The spirit of the law does not stack up in a court room. It is also not a clubs place to decide what the spirit of the law is. It's for our Parliament to make the laws and it's their responsibility to do it right.
You are quite right, clubs must adapt and offering a simple 7 day access to the course and comps on the face of it seems the way to go. However, many women don't want to play in and amongst the men on their comp day. At my club we offer 7 day to everyone and the difference between 7 and 6 day is minimal, but very few women, if any, choose to take it up.
In regard to your point on members seeing it as over priced if everyone pays the same. You are quite correct. However, as typically women were paying much less before, a huge rise in subs to get less was seen as overpriced and undoubtedly contributed to many women leaving the game.

 

[Fishwick]

I haven't watched the clip, but I would have to say that sadly equalities has harmed women's golf. Initially I was very much in favour of it and on the face if it it all looked great and whilst equality in everything should be a right, in golf this legislation actually did a disservice to the very people it was designed to protect.

Equality shouldn't be 'designed to protect' anyone.

If a club doesn't offer membership packages which suit all potential members then that's a fault of the club, not a fault of equality. If women, or men, don't wish to pay full membership prices for full access, and the club doesn't offer discounted memberships, they deserve to lose the business.

 

[doublebogey7]

And this is the problem. Golf clubs are attempting to fulfill the letter of the law, not the spirit, and failing because of it. Adopting the spirit of it, and offering full 7 day access to both sexes would mean that neither sex would see the product as overpriced, because they get the same thing. This means mixed comps on a saturday, rather than just saying "sorry ladies, it's the mens comp, always has been, no tees for you".

But if women are not allowed to play weekends because all tee times are reserved for Men's Competitions then they are not fulfilling the letter of the law either. Though of course it requires a women to challenge the practise.

 

[BoadieBroadus]

our competitions as such aren't mixed, but the tee times for the respective mens and ladies medals are mixed, so the saturday ladies can book slots on the saturday during the mens comp to play their medal rounds.

my mother came for lunch at my club (she is a member of a Glasgow club where women still weren't allowed in the posh members lounge at that time (2 years ago))

she saw a women's 3 ball come up the 18th in the middle of the mens medal and almost fell off her seat with delight and wonder.

in reality there is much more friction between the "Tuesday ladies" section and the "saturday Ladies" section - i understand that this isn't actually all that rare...

 

[HomerJSimpson]

But if women are not allowed to play weekends because all tee times are reserved for Men's Competitions then they are not fulfilling the letter of the law either. Though of course it requires a women to challenge the practise.

Our club asked the membership about running joint, integrated comps as I mentioned elsewhere. They voted overwhelmingly to keep them separate but the womens section get booked tee times and so priority when they have their events in exactly the same way as the mes comps so I'd say we're acting with equality

 

[FairwayDodger]

Our club asked the membership about running joint, integrated comps as I mentioned elsewhere. They voted overwhelmingly to keep them separate but the womens section get booked tee times and so priority when they have their events in exactly the same way as the mes comps so I'd say we're acting with equality

That's the thing about the letter of the law but not the spirit.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That's the thing about the letter of the law but not the spirit.

I disagree or rather fail to see the point! The women wanted to keep their comps separately and so the club continue to block book the tees for their events on a Saturday or Sunday in the same way as it gets booked for the men. I can't see why that isn't in the spirit.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I disagree or rather fail to see the point! The women wanted to keep their comps separately and so the club continue to block book the tees for their events on a Saturday or Sunday in the same way as it gets booked for the men. I can't see why that isn't in the spirit.

How long is the tee reserved for men's comps? How long for women's?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

How long is the tee reserved for men's comps? How long for women's?

As long as required to accommodate the playing numbers. Could be 2-3 hours in a big mens fields and could be 1-2 hours for a good sized ladies field too. As long as it takes

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Our club asked the membership about running joint, integrated comps as I mentioned elsewhere. They voted overwhelmingly to keep them separate but the womens section get booked tee times and so priority when they have their events in exactly the same way as the mes comps so I'd say we're acting with equality

This just brings up the issue of "why would a turkey vote for christmas"? Of course the current membership agree, the vast majority of people like it to stay the same. The issue is why people haven't joined, it may be because of the non integrated comps, who knows. But asking the current members is hard to judge whether it's right or wrong.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

This just brings up the issue of "why would a turkey vote for christmas"? Of course the current membership agree, the vast majority of people like it to stay the same. The issue is why people haven't joined, it may be because of the non integrated comps, who knows. But asking the current members is hard to judge whether it's right or wrong.

I fail to see what else the club can do. As a members club it has to be voted on. They laid out both arguments (along with a separate motion to introduce booked tee times all the time and not roll up as we can now). It was a landslide (particularly from the women) who wanted to run them separately

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This just brings up the issue of "why would a turkey vote for christmas"? Of course the current membership agree, the vast majority of people like it to stay the same. The issue is why people haven't joined, it may be because of the non integrated comps, who knows. But asking the current members is hard to judge whether it's right or wrong.

That's why our committee have decided to introduce mixed medals without a vote with the members.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

That's why our committee have decided to introduce mixed medals without a vote with the members.

We're a members club and as such it has to be voted on at an AGM or EGM. Them is the rules

 

[FairwayDodger]

As long as required to accommodate the playing numbers. Could be 2-3 hours in a big mens fields and could be 1-2 hours for a good sized ladies field too. As long as it takes

And this is why I say it's the letter of the law but not the spirit.

To be honest, those figures make it seem not a big deal but at many clubs a similar arrangement would mean women effectively can't play until late afternoon when there is a men's comp on and, conversely, only require a couple of hours for their own comps.

Do you have the same number of men's and women's comps or do the women suffer the double whammy of longer blocks, more often reserved for the men?

I don't intend to have a go at you or your club, Homer, just trying to illustrate an issue. The bare minimum I look for in a club is that I have the same opportunity to get on the course and play golf as any other member. When I was considering moving, I rejected several for this reason. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day if the reason for inequity is that there are more men than women, even if you just accept that as a practical reality, the upshot is that some members have less access to the course.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

And this is why I say it's the letter of the law but not the spirit.

To be honest, those figures make it seem not a big deal but at many clubs a similar arrangement would mean women effectively can't play until late afternoon when there is a men's comp on and, conversely, only require a couple of hours for their own comps.

Do you have the same number of men's and women's comps or do the women suffer the double whammy of longer blocks, more often reserved for the men?

I don't intend to have a go at you or your club, Homer, just trying to illustrate an issue. The bare minimum I look for in a club is that I have the same opportunity to get on the course and play golf as any other member. When I was considering moving, I rejected several for this reason. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day if the reason for inequity is that there are more men than women, even if you just accept that as a practical reality, the upshot is that some members have less access to the course.

To be honest, the comps are usually run the same day and go straight from one into the other. It's very unusual at our place for the mens event to be any later than 10.30 especially as you can also roll up later in the day should your wish. The women go straight out from 10.38 until all of their field is away

 

[FairwayDodger]

To be honest, the comps are usually run the same day and go straight from one into the other. It's very unusual at our place for the mens event to be any later than 10.30 especially as you can also roll up later in the day should your wish. The women go straight out from 10.38 until all of their field is away

Doesn't sound too bad! :thup: