Has environmental evangelism replaced the religious envagelism?

[Bunkermagnet]

It's clear to me that the electric/hydrogen cars are the future so it saddens me to see car manufacturers still bringing out new petrol and diesel cars.
And in 5-10 years time, they will still be trying to sell off these petrol and diesel cars that they are making today.

In 5-10 years time we still won’t have enough generating capacity to charge all the electric cars you want to see out there.

 

[bobmac]

In 5-10 years time we still won’t have enough generating capacity to charge all the electric cars you want to see out there.

You don't think we'll come up with more energy in the next 5-10 years?

 

[robinthehood]

In 5-10 years time we still won’t have enough generating capacity to charge all the electric cars you want to see out there.

If someone can come up with a way to cheaply produce hydrogen then we will be fine.

 

[nickjdavis]

If someone can come up with a way to cheaply produce hydrogen then we will be fine.

and then the government will tax it to death.

 

[Bunkermagnet]

You don't think we'll come up with more energy in the next 5-10 years?

In short.....no.
It takes a good 20-25 years to have anything like power production researched, planned, debated, replanned, contracts drawn, building then testing before going live.
So no, 5-10 years is no-where near the time frame it takes.

 

[bobmac]

In short.....no.
It takes a good 20-25 years to have anything like power production researched, planned, debated, replanned, contracts drawn, building then testing before going live.
So no, 5-10 years is no-where near the time frame it takes.

I didn't mean new energy, I just meant more, as in expanding the sources we have now like solar, hydro and wind.

 

[GB72]

I didn't mean new energy, I just meant more, as in expanding the sources we have now like solar, hydro and wind.

We are going to have enough on our plate replacing our existing, aging power stations, some of which are well past their planned life, before being able to expand energy production

 

[Bunkermagnet]

I didn't mean new energy, I just meant more, as in expanding the sources we have now like solar, hydro and wind.

They won't fill the need.
W have no chance of having enough energy on tap for the massive increase electric cars would put on the system, and currently our generating rate is only just enough for our current needs due to the ageing power stations and the closing of all the coal powered without there being an immediate replacement.

 

[USER1999]

But if we all stopped eating meat, we could turn the refrigerator off?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

But if we all stopped eating meat, we could turn the refrigerator off?

Is it only meat in your fridge then?
We dont have to worry about things like that now anyway, the Chinese are illegally producing plenty of CFC gases for their air conditioning demands, the hole in the ozone layer in the Southern hemispere is growing again, very rapidly.

 

[bobmac]

They won't fill the need.
W have no chance of having enough energy on tap for the massive increase electric cars would put on the system, and currently our generating rate is only just enough for our current needs due to the ageing power stations and the closing of all the coal powered without there being an immediate replacement.

So what will happen when everyone starts buying electric cars?

 

[Bunkermagnet]

So what will happen when everyone starts buying electric cars?

They won't.
However if (as you hope) everyone did, you would see blackouts.

 

[USER1999]

Is it only meat in your fridge then?
We dont have to worry about things like that now anyway, the Chinese are illegally producing plenty of CFC gases for their air conditioning demands, the hole in the ozone layer in the Southern hemispere is growing again, very rapidly.

No, but in reality, veg, milk, butter, etc used to be kept in a larder, and could be again. Very little in the fridge actually needs to be there.

 

[bobmac]

They won't.
However if (as you hope) everyone did, you would see blackouts.

Have you got any evidence of that because according to the National Grid there wouldn't be any blackouts

 

[Bunkermagnet]

No, but in reality, veg, milk, butter, etc used to be kept in a larder, and could be again. Very little in the fridge actually needs to be there.

But kitchens no longer have a larder cupboard any more. Produce also lasted longer because it came from local farms and producers. Now it comes from half way aroudn the world, and the farms that used to supply us now have solar panels, or housing estates on them.

 

[Hobbit]

@Hobbit as ever an insightful and thought provoking post. Been mulling a few points over for a few days before responding.

I’ve went backward and forward on your second paragraph with regards to young kids being exposed to much too young, I don’t know if I’ve yet formed a solid opinion on whether I agree with you or not, but what I would say is that the current generation of young teenagers is generally very engaged and articulate. They also seem to care greatly about social issues and want to do something about them. Your point about them being able to rationalise an argument and contextualise it is very interesting and probably the area I’m stuck on most. On the one hand I think they have more access to data/news/insight than any generation ever beforehand, but I think they are also more susceptible to echo chambers and misinformation.
The other thing I’ll add to this point, and this is a bit of a generalisation, but to some ‘protesting’ is play... it’s getting out on social media and making statements, building a profile and being known for something. I see lots of examples in my work of this, and although it’s usually good natured it can be dangerous when it gets competitive.

On your first paragraph. This is easier for me. I’m a big believer in big business, they usually have the answer or will create the answer and consumers will then follow. This is a bigger challenge than ever before because it’s worldwide, but I strongly believe that an Amazon/Walmart type size org will crack this and then others will HAVE to follow.
I believe it will happen in auto within the next five years, I believe Nissan think the qahqai might be the one for them that cracks it, and will show how strong and viable the market can be. Here’s hoping anyway.

Lastly, re offsetting. My wife and I discussed it again, and she really does have her doubts. Both about the orgs that do it, and the effect it has. Like you say it’s kind of done already.
We’re also sadly both of the opinion that it’s actually already too late as well, just in general all over the world. There’s too much plastic, too much waste, too much emissions, too much nuclear waste, too much everything unfortunately and I fear now that there is no way of reversing it all.

Sorry to end on such a dour note...

TBH, I think we're more or less on the same page.

Seeing a 15-16 yr old being interviewed, no problem, but the 2x 10yr olds, no it just didn't seem right.

Big business; I agree that big business will come up with the answers. But, and its a big but, to a large extent only when pushed by legislation. Some industries will make the change of their own volition if it means cost saving or producing a product that is streets ahead. You also have to consider the rate of change is different from country to country, e.g. a steel producer in China throws out way more muck than one in a modern plant in Europe.

Is it too late? No it isn't providing it becomes big (state sponsored) business to do environmental clean ups. The scale of the clean ups will, in some areas, have to be huge but I still think the planet can be saved.

 

[bobmac]

According to the National travel survey, the average distance people drive is just under 8,000 miles per year.
153 miles per week.
https://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-a...-miles-driven-per-year-in-the-uk-0-8581-0.htm

A Nissan Leaf will travel 168 miles on one charge.
https://pod-point.com/guides/vehicles/nissan/2018/leaf
Some say nearer 130 miles
The Hyundai Kona will do 250 miles
https://www.buyacar.co.uk/cars/econ...range-how-far-will-they-really-go-on-a-single

So you only need to charge your car once or twice per week overnight when the demand for electricity is very small.
Or at a fast public charger at your local supermarket.
It's not like everyone gets home from work and plugs their car in at 6pm every night.
https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/

And for those who say there aren't enough charging points, how many petrol stations were there when the petrol car was invented?
But to answer your question .........
12 months ago the were 17,673 charging points
This month there are 26,222 so they are getting there.

All these figures are based on scientific research.

Religious envagelism is based on.........emmmmmm.......a 2000 year old book.

I know who I'd rather talk to on the street.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Bob, I largely agree with what you are saying but we are just not there yet. The right cars are not there, the availability of charging is not there, the range of larger cars is not there.

My mum and in laws definitely could go electric as they fit your model perfectly. The downside for them, apart from getting their heads around it, is the cost new. I checked out a new Nissan Leaf, perfect size and range, and it is £31k. They can buy a similar sized petrol Micra for £13k. Yes, they could buy second hand but the gap still exists. Until that gap reduces uptake will remain low.

I'm hoping mfrs will be bringing out new models in the next 12 months or so that give a better range of size, much lower in cost. Fingers crossed.

Edit - Renault have just released a new version of their Zoe model. £21k. That is going in the right direction.

 

[bobmac]

Bob, I largely agree with what you are saying but we are just not there yet. The right cars are not there, the availability of charging is not there, the range of larger cars is not there.

My mum and in laws definitely could go electric as they fit your model perfectly. The downside for them, apart from getting their heads around it, is the cost new. I checked out a new Nissan Leaf, perfect size and range, and it is £31k. They can buy a similar sized petrol Micra for £13k. Yes, they could buy second hand but the gap still exists. Until that gap reduces uptake will remain low.

I'm hoping mfrs will be bringing out new models in the next 12 months or so that give a better range of size, much lower in cost. Fingers crossed.

Edit - Renault have just released a new version of their Zoe model. £21k. That is going in the right direction.

I agree, we're not there yet but
My local garage has 2 Leafs (Leaves?) for sale, both 2016
£11.000 and £13,000 .........different specs

https://www.johnpeatmotors.co.uk/used-vehicles-in-lincolnshire/?Make=Nissan&Model=Leaf

And as I mentioned above the Kona has a realistic range of 250 miles
How far does your mum drive in one go without stopping?
Bare in mind the fast chargers will charge an average car up to 80% full in about 30 mins

And if you want to go up market and talk Tesla 3.......
Range 348 miles
0-60 3.2 sec
Top speed 162mph
Cost £52,000............£8,000 cheaper than an M3

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I agree, we're not there yet but
My local garage has 2 Leafs (Leaves?) for sale, both 2016
£11.000 and £13,000 .........different specs

https://www.johnpeatmotors.co.uk/used-vehicles-in-lincolnshire/?Make=Nissan&Model=Leaf

And as I mentioned above the Kona has a realistic range of 250 miles
How far does your mum drive in one go without stopping?
Bare in mind the fast chargers will charge an average car up to 80% full in about 30 mins

And if you want to go up market and talk Tesla 3.......
Range 348 miles
0-60 3.2 sec
Top speed 162mph
Cost £52,000............£8,000 cheaper than an M3

I totally agree that for my mum it would make sense. She does make the occasional 200 mile journey, to visit me , but in reality those trips will reduce anyway due to her age. She would suit the template of 10k p/a most trips within 2-10 miles per time. The odd 60-70 mile round trip but that is not a problem with those ranges. She also has a drive so charging at home is simple.

She is not looking to change her car, she has a 12yr + petrol Avensis that she will drive until it packs in, but if she has to get another car I will be pushing her towards an electric one.

I drive 21k per year and the only car on the market that could fit my mileage and size requirement currently is a Tesla. Unfortunately I do not have £52k, or anywhere near, so that is going to have to wait a few years . Next one for me could well be a hybrid, a half way house until the tech catches up.