Handicap manipulation - how to address

[3offTheTee]

59 for a 2 person scramble ?

All depends on the handicaps of the people

See post 1535 LP

 

[Arthur Wedge]

See post 1535 LP

Off those handicaps then it’s very much an attainable score

 

[Swango1980]

I’m not talking about ‘bending the rules’. I am talking about multiple occasions of members playing with visitors and either or both submitting cards despite no green fee being paid. For some this was a regular occurrence, some an accidental one (oh I thought he had paid). We do not know how often people play without paying, we only know about the ones who have left an electronic footprint.
There are untold number of occasions of cards from wrong formats, this is not bending the rules.
Having someone who didn’t witness your round attesting in writing that they did is a biggish ‘bend’.
There are many excuses, some valid, for the breaches - ignorance etc. but many are, through admission, known/knowing.

I agree. I was simply making a point that in one very small instance relevant to what you were saying, I've seen golfers do things they shouldn't be doing, that would come up as a anomaly if anybody every looked deeper into it.

And, if this very specific situation can go on with the small number of golfers I've come across, it can certainly be a lot more widespread across a full membership, let alone when you consider visitors to the club as well. And then expand that to many many more different scenarios that golfers that can act in a way that they shouldn't in regards to submitting scores.

 

[rulefan]

I’m not talking about ‘bending the rules’. I am talking about multiple occasions of members playing with visitors and either or both submitting cards despite no green fee being paid. For some this was a regular occurrence, some an accidental one (oh I thought he had paid). We do not know how often people play without paying, we only know about the ones who have left an electronic footprint.
There are untold number of occasions of cards from wrong formats, this is not bending the rules.
Having someone who didn’t witness your round attesting in writing that they did is a biggish ‘bend’.
There are many excuses, some valid, for the breaches - ignorance etc. but many are, through admission, known/knowing.

It would seem that the administration processes at your club are not up to scratch.

 

[Swango1980]

It would seem that the administration processes at your club are not up to scratch.

That is D-S being slapped on the wrist. Must do better apparently

 

[D-S]

It would seem that the administration processes at your club are not up to scratch.

In what way?

 

[3offTheTee]

That is D-S being slapped on the wrist. Must do better apparently

I read it that DS was advising the Handicap Committee. He was doing a great job and I interpreted because of his diligence it was The Handicap Committee that needed a “slip on the wrist”

 

[Whereditgo]

Off those handicaps then it’s very much an attainable score

That sort of nonsense doesn't belong in this thread, they should have had handicaps of 15+ and 30+

 

[D-S]

I read it that DS was advising the Handicap Committee. He was doing a great job and I interpreted because of his diligence it was The Handicap Committee that needed a “slip on the wrist”

The Handicap Committee perhaps should have been doing what I have for them but it is quite a time consuming thing.
As to the odd comment re my club’s ’administration procedures’, we have booking 3 days a week and roll up the other days. We also have a Marshall who works random days a week.
We, just as many clubs, believed that our members were unlikely to bring guests without signing them in, in fact sneaking them into the course, however they did, a couple regularly. We also didn’t think we had visitors who either outright falsified cards without playing or snuck on without paying and submitted cards.
We now know this is not the case and as I inferred in my original post, if this is happening with our marshal and booking system then I am 95% or more certain that this is happening at a lot of clubs.
One administration procedure highlighted this at our club, I wonder if other clubs ‘administration procedures’ will mean that they are 95% or more certain that this never has and never will happen at their club.

 

[Swango1980]

I read it that DS was advising the Handicap Committee. He was doing a great job and I interpreted because of his diligence it was The Handicap Committee that needed a “slip on the wrist”

Yeah, my brief comment was more alluding to the overall Committee rather than just the Handicap Committee, and as D-S is the only one here representing that Committee, then he gets the slap on the wrist for their procedures not being up to scratch.

Obviously, breaking that down, D-S seems to be doing a lot of work to investigate a lot of the detail of the submitted scores and reporting it to those in the Handicap Committee (who you'd expect to be the ones to do that work, if anyone is to do it).

For me, however, it sounds like D-S is going above and beyond what many many handicap Committees would do. That's partly highlighted that his very own Handicap Committee are not doing it. They won't be alone in that, and most won't have a D-S to do it for them.

And what D-S has shown is that there are very many cases of potentially bogus scores being submitted into the system in his own experience. So, extend that out to over 2,500 clubs across the UK, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dodgy scores going onto people's records

 

[D-S]

And what D-S has shown is that there are very many cases of potentially bogus scores being submitted into the system in his own experience. So, extend that out to over 2,500 clubs across the UK, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dodgy scores going onto people's records

Exactly this.

Most clubs that I’ve talked to don’t see the problem because they haven’t consistently looked or don’t have the tools to cross reference and just assume there isn’t a problem and that people (their own members) are not that stupid or ignorant or devious. Some also don’t care as long as their members are not involved.
We are pretty good at educating our members about their WHS responsibilities but obviously not perfect - however the issues we have had with visitors submitting scores from matches, Bowmakers and 4BB comps are extremely regular. The responses that we have received from other clubs range from thank you we will act quickly to who cares or no response. The worst response was from EG re iGolfers.

 

[clubchamp98]

It would seem that the administration processes at your club are not up to scratch.

It’s blatant cheating .
Hoping nobody finds out.!

 

[Swango1980]

Exactly this.

Most clubs that I’ve talked to don’t see the problem because they haven’t consistently looked or don’t have the tools to cross reference and just assume there isn’t a problem and that people (their own members) are not that stupid or ignorant or devious. Some also don’t care as long as their members are not involved.
We are pretty good at educating our members about their WHS responsibilities but obviously not perfect - however the issues we have had with visitors submitting scores from matches, Bowmakers and 4BB comps are extremely regular. The responses that we have received from other clubs range from thank you we will act quickly to who cares or no response. The worst response was from EG re iGolfers.

In fairness, you could have the perfect education. You could be going above and beyond what is required of any club.

But, that doesn't mean that 100% of members in a Club of several hundred members will take anything from it. You will still get very many that will simply ignore notice boards, ignore e-mails, not attend meetings, etc. They'll simply continue to play golf, and if there is anything specific that they need to find out about something, they'll often do it word of mouth. So, some might see a member submitting scores on their phone, think that looks pretty cool, and then ask them what App it is and how to do it. Finding out the importance of pre-registration, the reason behind attesting a score, etc will not be really something they are interested in. They'll just do what they need to do to get the score in

 

[rulie]

Yeah, my brief comment was more alluding to the overall Committee rather than just the Handicap Committee, and as D-S is the only one here representing that Committee, then he gets the slap on the wrist for their procedures not being up to scratch.

Obviously, breaking that down, D-S seems to be doing a lot of work to investigate a lot of the detail of the submitted scores and reporting it to those in the Handicap Committee (who you'd expect to be the ones to do that work, if anyone is to do it).

For me, however, it sounds like D-S is going above and beyond what many many handicap Committees would do. That's partly highlighted that his very own Handicap Committee are not doing it. They won't be alone in that, and most won't have a D-S to do it for them.

And what D-S has shown is that there are very many cases of potentially bogus scores being submitted into the system in his own experience. So, extend that out to over 2,500 clubs across the UK, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dodgy scores going onto people's records

Is the sky falling everywhere?

 

[Imurg]

For the last 10 months I have been regularly checking the ‘score listing by day’ report in WHS for my club and when necessary cross referencing with the tee sheet and visitor payments.
The report shows who has submitted scores for handicapping either via the club ISV terminal or the EG App. The EG App shows the CDH number and club of both the player and their attester. This has thrown up a very large number of anomalies and issues.
These range from scores submitted by visitors with no record of attendance or payment, sometimes attested by members, sometimes by fellow visitors. Scores attested by members or visitors with the attester having no record of attendance or payment. GP scores submitted when the course have a has been closed. Individual scores submitted from visitors and members when they have played in Bowmakers, 4BB or team matches etc. etc.
We have about 2 or three issues most weeks.
This has become such a regular occurrence that the Handicap Committee see me as a bit of a pain for continually pointing out these transgressions and having to take action. The actions involve everything from reporting offenders to their club, to educating members and on a fair few occasions taking disciplinary action.
Just for an example, it was noticed this week that a member created a scorecard at 16.00, submitted the score at 20.00 and had it attested by his son the following day at 09.00 - as it was a roll up day we have no idea if he or his son played that day. On further checking both his last GP scorecards, in December, were created after 16.00 and followed the same pattern. He will be educated. It is difficult to know if this is manipulation, laziness or ignorance.
Because I keep on finding issues I keep on checking and have identified many, many hundreds of pounds in lost revenue, some of which have been recouped, some not.
I have often advised other clubs that this report it as Pandora’s box that is worth opening, some have done so, most haven’t as either they haven’t the time or inclination or often that ‘their members aren’t stupid as to to leave an electronic trail’ as to their ignorance, manipulation or theft of green fee income. Sadly in our case (a fairly respectable club) this is not the case.
There are ways of checking on people and the system is not bad for this but could be a lot better.
The level of ignorance and wilful disregard of the rules for whatever purpose is staggering though.

Sadly, at my club, we have now way to trace this sort of skullduggery as we only have tee sheets on Tuesday morning (Ladies), Sunday morning ( Men) and occasional competitions.
95% of the time there is no record of who has played or how many have played. The only possible record would be to scour the cctv on the gates but that would involve knowing member's registration numbers and I don't think, in the grand scheme of things, it's unreasonable to say that's going a bit far...
As a result it would be very easy to manipulate one's HI .....and pretty hard to detect.....

 

[Neilds]

Exactly this.

Most clubs that I’ve talked to don’t see the problem because they haven’t consistently looked or don’t have the tools to cross reference and just assume there isn’t a problem and that people (their own members) are not that stupid or ignorant or devious. Some also don’t care as long as their members are not involved.
We are pretty good at educating our members about their WHS responsibilities but obviously not perfect - however the issues we have had with visitors submitting scores from matches, Bowmakers and 4BB comps are extremely regular. The responses that we have received from other clubs range from thank you we will act quickly to who cares or no response. The worst response was from EG re iGolfers.

With the 'anomalies' you are finding, how are the scores affecting people's handicaps? Are they maintaining vanity handicaps, using cards to increase their handicaps or are they similar to their actual handicaps?

 

[Neilds]

Sadly, at my club, we have now way to trace this sort of skullduggery as we only have tee sheets on Tuesday morning (Ladies), Sunday morning ( Men) and occasional competitions.
95% of the time there is no record of who has played or how many have played. The only possible record would be to scour the cctv on the gates but that would involve knowing member's registration numbers and I don't think, in the grand scheme of things, it's unreasonable to say that's going a bit far...
As a result it would be very easy to manipulate one's HI .....and pretty hard to detect.....

Just because you aren't paying for your round of golf, doesn't mean you are manipulating our handicap. That is like saying all speeders shoplift.

 

[Swango1980]

Is the sky falling everywhere?

I don't understand this?

 

[rulie]

I don't understand this?

From post 1550 - And what D-S has shown is that there are very many cases of potentially bogus scores being submitted into the system in his own experience. So, extend that out to over 2,500 clubs across the UK, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dodgy scores going onto people's records

 

[clubchamp98]

Yeah, my brief comment was more alluding to the overall Committee rather than just the Handicap Committee, and as D-S is the only one here representing that Committee, then he gets the slap on the wrist for their procedures not being up to scratch.

Obviously, breaking that down, D-S seems to be doing a lot of work to investigate a lot of the detail of the submitted scores and reporting it to those in the Handicap Committee (who you'd expect to be the ones to do that work, if anyone is to do it).

For me, however, it sounds like D-S is going above and beyond what many many handicap Committees would do. That's partly highlighted that his very own Handicap Committee are not doing it. They won't be alone in that, and most won't have a D-S to do it for them.

And what D-S has shown is that there are very many cases of potentially bogus scores being submitted into the system in his own experience. So, extend that out to over 2,500 clubs across the UK, you could be looking at tens of thousands of dodgy scores going onto people's records

There will be someone along soon to point out that DS is wrong.

There were lots of bad comittiees under UHS but they still went ahead and installed a system to bypass them using an APP that is so easy to manipulate it’s a joke.

And as DS has shown you have to go looking for them but when you find them a blind eye is shown by lots of them.