GPS ruling change perhaps....???

[The_LHC]

ah ha! but you also know the wind is 14 knots from WSW, so with a quick application of basic trig (aided by the built in calculator of course) you know that the wind speed on your line of flight will give you an extra - oh 3 yards, so aiding your club selection.

MI BRANE HURTZ!!!

 

[Robobum]

I might but I'm not that bothered, truth be told, as it doesn't actually affect me, .

For someone who isn't bothered you seem to be making one hell of a fuss about nothing.

Don't use your phone - buy a sky caddie - get over it.

 

[The_LHC]

You don't need a compass to know where the wind is coming from. Anyway the wind fluctuates more than most folks realise and even 'live on the spot' info is historic data by the time you've digested it.

As others have said, flags, wind vanes, grass being thrown up in the air, can tell us wind information and even just 'feeling' it. I can't see what use a compass is if you don't have up to the minute live and localised weather feed. Intact the compass is bloody useless.

But let's bring it back to some kinda sensibility with what an iPhone can do that would be local, relevant and illegal. Clear cut.

A theodlite type app that enables me to measure the gradient of a hill. It exists. Now slope measuring laser DMD's are illegal in comp use; so it stands to reason that a phone capable of doing this should also be banned. Regardless if you have the app installed or not.

This is the trouble, the R&A have said it's only a problem if you have an app installed that takes advantage of the functionality, hence the iPhone ban because you can't uninstall the compass. That gives too much of a grey area in my opinion. Either ban the potential functionality or don't.

To take it one step further. It would be possible to have an app to calculate the elevation or declination and using the GPS function to mathematically calculate the revised distance based on that information.

Well GPS can give you your altitude very easily, I'm reasonably certain that's information that wouldn't be permitted (as the ball flies further at higher altitude, not so you'd notice in this country but distinctly so in parts of the US) but that would mean GPS devices would be banned, even if they don't show the altitude.

For the above reasons, I can understand the ruling based on slope rated laser range finders. The argument for weather and compass apps being used as the reason for the ban is misunderstood and wrong in my view.

For that reason the R&A bans stands, but not because of a compass, but because of the elevation function that an iPhone can be used for. Compass and weather is a non argument, especially as more relevant 'live' info can be got just by using your senses.

Bang on, so any phone without a compass or accelerometer or without an app installed to take advantage of them should be legal.

 

[The_LHC]

I might but I'm not that bothered, truth be told, as it doesn't actually affect me, .

For someone who isn't bothered you seem to be making one hell of a fuss about nothing.

Oh granted but I wouldn't need to if you'd all just agree with me!

I took the English Pool Association's Refereeing exam a few years back and I gave the answer to the first question wrong, deliberately, because I considered the wording of the rule to be ambiguous. I argued the toss with the examiner for half an hour because of one superfluous word ("and")!

There's a serious point though, the R&A can't afford to be wrong in their interpretation of any rule, that leaves them open to accusations of incompetence, if this rule is wrongly interpreted how many others might be.

The interpretation of this rule actually contradicts the rule itself, you just can't do that!

Don't use your phone - buy a sky caddie - get over it.

But why? Why should I have to spend all that money when I already have a perfectly legal device in my pocket?

 

[haplesshacker]

Civil use altitude from GPS is inacurate. So it would be useless from that point of view.

Though regardless of the reasons, informed or otherwise, our club has banned all smart phone gps devices, whether the device has a compass or not. Obviously after taking advice from the R&A.

I accept your argument regarding whether the interpretation of the rule is correct or not, and it would be an interesting 'case' if it ever came to it.

But life's too short!!

I have an iPhone, but not a skycaddy et al. Am I a bit disgruntled at not being able to use Golfshot etc during a comp, yep. Am I willing to take it to the R&A and argue the toss about it after finishing 29th in the monthly medal and then being disqualified for using my iPhone gps app? Nope.

Do I think the ruling as it stands is correct? Nope.
Am I going to spend hours convincing the R&A to change the rule. Nope.
Am I just going to use my iPhone gps app anyway?
















Yep!














Just kidding!!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

[I took the English Pool Association's Refereeing exam a few years back and I gave the answer to the first question wrong, deliberately, because I considered the wording of the rule to be ambiguous. I argued the toss with the examiner for half an hour because of one superfluous word ("and")!

Why. Did it solve anything?

The simple point here is that they've made the decision. Whether it is right, wrong mis-interpreted on in bloody Swahili they have said what can and can't be done. If you aren't happy get an accepted device and leave the phone alone or don't bother with DMD at all and use your eyes and own sense of distance management.

 

[The_LHC]

[I took the English Pool Association's Refereeing exam a few years back and I gave the answer to the first question wrong, deliberately, because I considered the wording of the rule to be ambiguous. I argued the toss with the examiner for half an hour because of one superfluous word ("and")!

Why. Did it solve anything?

No and I still get players arguing with me about it when they think their opponent has fouled and they haven't, precisely because the rule is ambiguous.

The simple point here is that they've made the decision. Whether it is right, wrong mis-interpreted on in bloody Swahili they have said what can and can't be done.

And that means we can't discuss the rights or wrongs of that decision does it? Do you employ that attitude in every aspect of your life? I really hope not or you'd be the most down-trodden person on the planet.

If you aren't happy get an accepted device and leave the phone alone or don't bother with DMD at all and use your eyes and own sense of distance management.

What, you mean like the pros do? Don't use that argument, it's beneath you, you're better than that.

 

[surefire]

This way the R&A do not have to keep up to date with all smart phone tech they have made the rule there you go no questions, it is what it is, which I agree with

And that's exactly my point, they've made the rule and current smartphones do NOT fall foul of it.

Just off the top of my head, what about the Nokia 5140?
I think it came out in about 2003 and it has a thermometer.

Nokia 5140

 

[Fyldewhite]

But life's too short!!

Absolutely, having waded through this thread.

The problem I have with all this is that I can have a smartphone with (say) Freecaddie installed and use this during a round. Now, because the smartphone is "capable" of doing all sorts of other stuff it appears to be illegal to use it simply to take advantage of the GPS app.

Another player may have a SkyCaddie for distances and just because it doesn't do other stuff...... even if he has a smartphone in his bag or pocket... he seems to be OK, local rule permitting etc.

Surely the answer is to make the rule say it is ok to use a GPS measuring system (of whatever type) and it is not OK to use a device (or app) that does the other stuff like temperature, gradient, wind speed etc.

After all, in the "old days" before all this techno babble there were no strip searches on the first tee for illegal equipment, it was simply left to the integrity of the individuals not to cheat. Are we saying that we don't trust players not to use mobiles or other devices for illegal purposes?

If we are then it is indeed a sad day for golf.

 

[Screwback]

Having read this thread i think certain forumers are trying to argue that black is white and vice versa.

I could not think of anything else worse than wasting my battery and damaging the screen on my iphone so i have a full proof 100 percent legal sky caddie.

At the end of the day there are some funny rules in every sport but they are indeed rules made by a govering body and that means you follow them if you break them you are a cheat.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

[I took the English Pool Association's Refereeing exam a few years back and I gave the answer to the first question wrong, deliberately, because I considered the wording of the rule to be ambiguous. I argued the toss with the examiner for half an hour because of one superfluous word ("and")!

Why. Did it solve anything?

No and I still get players arguing with me about it when they think their opponent has fouled and they haven't, precisely because the rule is ambiguous.

The simple point here is that they've made the decision. Whether it is right, wrong mis-interpreted on in bloody Swahili they have said what can and can't be done.

And that means we can't discuss the rights or wrongs of that decision does it? Do you employ that attitude in every aspect of your life? I really hope not or you'd be the most down-trodden person on the planet.

If you aren't happy get an accepted device and leave the phone alone or don't bother with DMD at all and use your eyes and own sense of distance management.

What, you mean like the pros do? Don't use that argument, it's beneath you, you're better than that.

Who the hell do you think you are with those assumptions. What do you mean it's beneath me. You've some front. You'll be telling me your in a chateau in France with your Lafite 56 and five new sets of Miura irons and that I'm a peasant. Downtrodden too. Blimey I think anyone who has met me on here will tell you that one thing I can't be accused of is being quiet reserved and definitely not downtrodden.

Has to be the most ridiculous response on this thread so far but has certainly made me chuckle. How wrong you are

 

[shagster]

here goes
i have golf shot on my iphone 4, and i use it in friendlies,
but never have used it in comp, and as i have said before, no dmd should be used in amature game comps, it should be you against the course.
by saying that you have an app installed, and you might use it and so you are going to cheat, you may as well stop all comps, as i can kick my ball to a better lie, carry a ball and find the ball i have just driven into the rough.
golf is a game based purely on the integrity of the players themselves, so why would we use an app that is illegal, then call a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker on your back swing.
this rule needs a major overhaul, as does temp gauges on trollys.
shagster

 

[The_LHC]

[I took the English Pool Association's Refereeing exam a few years back and I gave the answer to the first question wrong, deliberately, because I considered the wording of the rule to be ambiguous. I argued the toss with the examiner for half an hour because of one superfluous word ("and")!

Why. Did it solve anything?

No and I still get players arguing with me about it when they think their opponent has fouled and they haven't, precisely because the rule is ambiguous.

The simple point here is that they've made the decision. Whether it is right, wrong mis-interpreted on in bloody Swahili they have said what can and can't be done.

And that means we can't discuss the rights or wrongs of that decision does it? Do you employ that attitude in every aspect of your life? I really hope not or you'd be the most down-trodden person on the planet.

If you aren't happy get an accepted device and leave the phone alone or don't bother with DMD at all and use your eyes and own sense of distance management.

What, you mean like the pros do? Don't use that argument, it's beneath you, you're better than that.

Who the hell do you think you are with those assumptions. What do you mean it's beneath me. You've some front. You'll be telling me your in a chateau in France with your Lafite 56 and five new sets of Miura irons and that I'm a peasant.

How on earth do you get to that conclusion? What I meant was, if you don't want the polite version, was that the argument "use your eyes instead" is quite pathetic (because nobody else in the game is required to do that, so I shouldn't have to) and you're too intelligent for an argument as weak as that. Now, if you're going to complain about me making that assumption then that's up to you but it was, in a way, a compliment, so I'm not going to apologise for it.

Downtrodden too. Blimey I think anyone who has met me on here will tell you that one thing I can't be accused of is being quiet reserved and definitely not downtrodden.

But you seem quite happy to accept a ruling that's clearly illogical with no basis in fact? You (clearly) wouldn't accept that in other aspect of your life but you do here, why?

Has to be the most ridiculous response on this thread so far but has certainly made me chuckle. How wrong you are

As are you but I'm not going to laugh at you for it.

 

[The_LHC]

here goes
i have golf shot on my iphone 4, and i use it in friendlies,
but never have used it in comp, and as i have said before, no dmd should be used in amature game comps, it should be you against the course.

Why? It isn't for the pros, they have caddies that provide the same information and more, so do some of the top amateurs, so do you stop that as well? That's an argument for another thread though.

by saying that you have an app installed, and you might use it and so you are going to cheat, you may as well stop all comps, as i can kick my ball to a better lie, carry a ball and find the ball i have just driven into the rough.
golf is a game based purely on the integrity of the players themselves, so why would we use an app that is illegal, then call a penalty for touching the sand in a bunker on your back swing.

Exactly, in every other part of the game it's only illegal to actually do something, being able to do it isn't the same thing but it seemingly is here.

 

[The_LHC]

I could not think of anything else worse than wasting my battery and damaging the screen on my iphone so i have a full proof 100 percent legal sky caddie

Dont' know why it would damage the screen?

At the end of the day there are some funny rules in every sport but they are indeed rules made by a govering body and that means you follow them if you break them you are a cheat.

If my phone is in my bag it still has the capability to measure distance and to get a weather report off the net, by that token I'm still cheating then? I'm not using either capability but if I use one of them I'm suddenly cheating even if I don't use the other one.

That is nonsense.

 

[Imurg]

If my phone is in my bag it still has the capability to measure distance and to get a weather report off the net, by that token I'm still cheating then? I'm not using either capability but if I use one of them I'm suddenly cheating even if I don't use the other one.

That is nonsense.

Nonsense it may be but its the rule. Illogical, stupid, downright unfair - call it what you will. It's the rule as it stands now 10.15 3rd Feb 2011. Until it's changed that's the rule

All sports have nonsense rules - just look at the offside rule in Footy. Golf has more than most.

I don't get why you're making such a big deal over it if you don't play comps.

 

[Fyldewhite]

I repeat ........

But life's too short!!

Absolutely, having waded through this thread.

The problem I have with all this is that I can have a smartphone with (say) Freecaddie installed and use this during a round. Now, because the smartphone is "capable" of doing all sorts of other stuff it appears to be illegal to use it simply to take advantage of the GPS app.

Another player may have a SkyCaddie for distances and just because it doesn't do other stuff...... even if he has a smartphone in his bag or pocket... he seems to be OK, local rule permitting etc.

Surely the answer is to make the rule say it is ok to use a GPS measuring system (of whatever type) and it is not OK to use a device (or app) that does the other stuff like temperature, gradient, wind speed etc.

After all, in the "old days" before all this techno babble there were no strip searches on the first tee for illegal equipment, it was simply left to the integrity of the individuals not to cheat. Are we saying that we don't trust players not to use mobiles or other devices for illegal purposes?

If we are then it is indeed a sad day for golf.

The rules will undoubtedly change at the next revision. The reason for the current ambiguity is that the powers that be didn't have a crystal ball and couldn't see how the mobile phone "app" situation would change (very quickly). IMO it was a complete cop-out to leave it down to local rules anyway. They should incorporate a proper ruling into the rules of golf whereas the current position is "It's against the rules but if clubs allow it then blah blah blah". End of the day we either allow distance measuring devices (GPS apps, dedicated GPS devices, laser rangefiners etc) or we don't.

 

[Losttheplot]

So glad I opened this thread!

So after reading the whole of the thread I have come to the conclusion that because I can't delete the weather app or the compass app, my iPhone cannot be used as a GPS device.
(The accelerometer needs the app for the gradient measuring which can be deleted therefore that part is ok)
Despite the weather not being up to the minute info and probably as accurate as the local newspaper and any one else can access before they walk onto the course means this rule is total bo***cks and not factually accurate in it's assumptions of an iPhones capability. As is the rule for the compass as again it is not complete up to date info.

But unfortunately the R&A stipulate the need for the compass and weather apps to be deleted to make the device conforming. So with this in mind the ruling is factually incorrect and not based on what the apps can actually display which is not real time info.

Unfortunately the ruling seems to be needing a revamp/review so until they do I won't be using my iPhone as a DMD until they make it legal.

 

[Imurg]

Is the correct answer!

But you can use your phone out of competition..........

 

[Robobum]

The bottom line the R&A are using is the same line I'm sure we all heard our parents say to us as kids when we kept banging on about something like LHC.

<u> BECAUSE I SAID SO </u>

It may be selfish of me, but I have a sky caddy which conforms so I couldn't care less if iphones (and such like) are illegal.