GPS ruling change perhaps....???

[The_LHC]

The_LHC you just don't get it do you.

I think I get it better than anyone else here (the rule that is...)

The current Rule Book runs from 2008 - 2011. That means that any rule changes, including DMD, were debated between 2005 (when the last rule book was issued) and 2007.
What smartphones were around then, certainly no Blackberries, iPhones?, anything? - and certainly no apps.
What do you expect of the rules committees (the USGA is involved in this too) - that they can foresee the future? if they could they'd all be rich and retired.

They don't need to foresee the future, they just need to understand the present and they don't.

Does your iPhone have a weather app, a compass app, can it measure gradient - any 'currently prohibited technology' - if yes to any - tough, you can't use it.

And that's the point, the only one of those that any smart phone can do is measure gradient (it's the accelerometer that does this, rather than compass, you can work out which way you're pointing by looking at the sun, so I don't really get the point about the compass) and it's only of any use to you if there's an app that can display the gradient in a sensible fashion, it can only do that if you lay it on the ground, if it's in your pocket or even in your hand it doesn't work. Either way, without that app, the phone can't do any of the things that are prohibited by the rule, so I'll ask again, why are they banned?

Don't forget it's not beyond the bounds of possiblity that they could ban DMD too - unlikely, but possible. I just hope they get off the fence and make an equitable ruling for everyone.

And if they did that it'd be fine, I'd stop using mine and play just as badly as I do now (I daresay there'd be a lot of outcry from the GPS manufacturers and they'd have to reverse their argument that distance is freely available information (which is all a weather app is providing incidentally) which would also ban course guides and caddies from providing distances).

I don't care which rules they invoke or revoke, I just want to see the rules that are in place interpreted correctly, because this one, currently, isn't.

If you could find a judge that had the faintest idea what a smartphone was you can guarantee that the R&As interpretation of this rule wouldn't stand up in a court of law, because their interpretation is based on a fallacious assumption.

 

[The_LHC]

This way the R&A do not have to keep up to date with all smart phone tech they have made the rule there you go no questions, it is what it is, which I agree with

And that's exactly my point, they've made the rule and current smartphones do NOT fall foul of it.

 

[coolhand]

It's my understanding that iPhones are banned because of the Compass and Accelerometer (as these are measuring devices) not the Weather apps (these don’t measure anything, just report it). Therefore to be consistent with the R&A policy of black and white rules (someone might use it to measure slope) they have no option but to ban them.

I’m not overly familiar with phone specs but I’m sure there are plenty with a GPS but no accelerometer – blackberries for one - and these would be fine when running a DM app.

 

[Imurg]

Here's a scenario.....

DMD's are allowed on Tour.

Sergio pops up one day with an iPhone GPS app. Kaymer and Westwood turn to John Paramore and say "That's not allowed is it? He's got a weather app on there"
Big John has to make a decision. How?
He looks at the rule, takes into account the R&A's interpretation of the rule and decides that Sergio is breaking the rule and penalises him appropriately.

How else can the rule be interpreted? Just because you interpret it differently to the R&A does this make you view right? YOu may interpret that Harrington's ball move or Poulter's marker flip didn't break the rules - well you'd be wrong.

Honestly, I think you need to talk to someone as high up the Rules food chain at ST Andrews as you can. If only to get a definitive answer to all this. "IF" you get the answer you're looking for, then great. If not and you keep using your phone then you run the risk of a DQ or worse being called a cheat.

 

[The_LHC]

I have to say I'd rather follow the R&A's interpretation of a rule any day of the week.

It would interesting to see the R&A's interpretation challenged. YOu obviously feel very strongly about this - why don't you take it up with them, argue your point and see what happens.

I might but I'm not that bothered, truth be told, as it doesn't actually affect me, I'm not a member of a club and don't play in competition, it's simply the lack of logic that gets my goat. The interpretation bears no relationship to the actual facts of the case.

My only interest in this whole thread is making sure people are aware of a ruling that might get them DQ'd in a competition.

And that's a VERY good point and I agree with you on it, I'm simply trying to provide the argument that they would have to employ to reverse that DQ.

 

[viscount17]

They don't need to foresee the future, they just need to understand the present and they don't.

no they don't, because the current rules were written for conditions as they existed before 2008. and those are the rules we have until they change them.

Even the next issue may not resolve this because the agenda for the committees may have already closed.

 

[freddielong]

This way the R&A do not have to keep up to date with all smart phone tech they have made the rule there you go no questions, it is what it is, which I agree with

And that's exactly my point, they've made the rule and current smartphones do NOT fall foul of it.

The R&A have made a rule allowing clubs to allow distance only devices it is precise and I think very clear, I do not think it can be misunderstood but I also think its a future proof rule if it was allowed it would be developed and once it is its harder to put back in the box.

 

[The_LHC]

It's my understanding that iPhones are banned because of the Compass and Accelerometer (as these are measuring devices) not the Weather apps (these don’t measure anything, just report it). Therefore to be consistent with the R&A policy of black and white rules (someone might use it to measure slope) they have no option but to ban them.

That doesn't seem to tally with the feedback received from the R&A that's quoted on the first page of this thread but if that is the case then I'd have no problem with that.

 

[The_LHC]

They don't need to foresee the future, they just need to understand the present and they don't.

no they don't, because the current rules were written for conditions as they existed before 2008. and those are the rules we have until they change them.

Yes but those rules should be applied to each new item of equipment AS IT IS RELEASED onto the market.

ie the rule governing COR was made a number of years ago before today's drivers were designed and built but each new driver is tested to ensure it conforms as (or before) it's released, so the R&A had no requirement to know in advance what sort of driver would be designed in 3 years time, they just apply the existing rules to each driver as and when it's made.

It's the same principle here, except, instead of testing each device (ie the phone in this case) they're making an assumption that the device is illegal, without actually testing it against the ruling. If they do it for clubs they should do it for everything else. They'd never ban a driver because they assumed it had too high a COR, so why are they assuming that current devices break the rules, without testing them?

 

[USER1999]

The R and A are never going to bother coming up with a list of conforming mobile phones. Or gps devices, or laser devices. They legislate on golf equipment, and the use of golf equipment. They lay out clear (ish) rules, and it is up to the golfer to ensure they conform to the rules, whether he agrees with them or not.

I could wear a watch with a barometer built in. It's cheating, so I don't. The R and A don't have a list of conforming watches either.

They do have a list of non conforming drivers. They are golf kit, and it was easy to make, as it was a one off list. No one makes any new ones.

 

[The_LHC]

How else can the rule be interpreted?

Based on the material facts!

It's very simple;

the rules ban any device that can measure wind speed and temperature,

no current smartphone can measure wind speed or temperature,

smartphones are banned anyway.

That's not an interpretation, those are facts and they don't make sense.

YOu may interpret that Harrington's ball move or Poulter's marker flip didn't break the rules - well you'd be wrong.

Of course not, in those cases the facts are clear, my point is the facts are clear in this case but the R&A are either not aware of them or they're ignoring them, either way the outcome is logically flawed.

 

[The_LHC]

The R and A are never going to bother coming up with a list of conforming mobile phones. Or gps devices, or laser devices. They legislate on golf equipment, and the use of golf equipment.

There are GPS devices designed, marketed and sold purely as golfing aids, they're golf equipment.

They lay out clear (ish) rules, and it is up to the golfer to ensure they conform to the rules, whether he agrees with them or not.

I could wear a watch with a barometer built in. It's cheating, so I don't. The R and A don't have a list of conforming watches either.

But they've now apparently listed a non-conforming phone (the iPhone), so it's vital that the conformity (or otherwise) of these devices is based on fact, not assumption, as it currently appears to be.



[/QUOTE]They do have a list of non conforming drivers. They are golf kit, and it was easy to make, as it was a one off list. No one makes any new ones.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, are you suggesting that NO new driver is tested for conformity to the COR rule?

 

[freddielong]

The R and A are never going to bother coming up with a list of conforming mobile phones. Or gps devices, or laser devices. They legislate on golf equipment, and the use of golf equipment.

There are GPS devices designed, marketed and sold purely as golfing aids, they're golf equipment.

They lay out clear (ish) rules, and it is up to the golfer to ensure they conform to the rules, whether he agrees with them or not.

I could wear a watch with a barometer built in. It's cheating, so I don't. The R and A don't have a list of conforming watches either.

But they've now apparently listed a non-conforming phone (the iPhone), so it's vital that the conformity (or otherwise) of these devices is based on fact, not assumption, as it currently appears to be.

They do have a list of non conforming drivers. They are golf kit, and it was easy to make, as it was a one off list. No one makes any new ones.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, are you suggesting that NO new driver is tested for conformity to the COR rule?

[/QUOTE]

The R&A is very clear Distance only its not distance and weather because its rubbish its distance only its easy, distance only

The rule could not be any clearer Distance only

 

[StuartD]

It's my understanding that iPhones are banned because of the Compass and Accelerometer (as these are measuring devices) not the Weather apps (these don’t measure anything, just report it). Therefore to be consistent with the R&A policy of black and white rules (someone might use it to measure slope) they have no option but to ban them.

I’m not overly familiar with phone specs but I’m sure there are plenty with a GPS but no accelerometer – blackberries for one - and these would be fine when running a DM app.

100% Correct. It is the Compass app that is the problem. The weather app is ok as it is not live info to assist you with your shot

Next question is what use is a Compass on the Course

My GPS measures 137 yds, Wind is behind and i have a huge advantage cause i know i am hitting the ball NNE

 

[viscount17]

ah ha! but you also know the wind is 14 knots from WSW, so with a quick application of basic trig (aided by the built in calculator of course) you know that the wind speed on your line of flight will give you an extra - oh 3 yards, so aiding your club selection.

 

[clubchamp07]

I'm confussed,

I lost the will to live half way through the posts.

Keep it simple pls, can we use our phones for distances?

 

[The_LHC]

The R&A is very clear Distance only its not distance and weather because its rubbish its distance only its easy, distance only

The rule could not be any clearer Distance only

And that's EXACTLY my point! These smart phones ONLY measure distance! They cannot and DO NOT measure wind speed or temperature.

 

[The_LHC]

It's my understanding that iPhones are banned because of the Compass and Accelerometer (as these are measuring devices) not the Weather apps (these don’t measure anything, just report it). Therefore to be consistent with the R&A policy of black and white rules (someone might use it to measure slope) they have no option but to ban them.

I’m not overly familiar with phone specs but I’m sure there are plenty with a GPS but no accelerometer – blackberries for one - and these would be fine when running a DM app.

100% Correct. It is the Compass app that is the problem. The weather app is ok as it is not live info to assist you with your shot

Next question is what use is a Compass on the Course

My GPS measures 137 yds, Wind is behind and i have a huge advantage cause i know i am hitting the ball NNE

I'm not familiar with the iPhone app but if it also features a gradient measure, like an artificial horizon on a plane, that's what makes it illegal.

 

[The_LHC]

I'm confussed,

I lost the will to live half way through the posts.

Keep it simple pls, can we use our phones for distances?

No you can't. Why? No reason that actually makes any sense.

 

[haplesshacker]

You don't need a compass to know where the wind is coming from. Anyway the wind fluctuates more than most folks realise and even 'live on the spot' info is historic data by the time you've digested it.

As others have said, flags, wind vanes, grass being thrown up in the air, can tell us wind information and even just 'feeling' it. I can't see what use a compass is if you don't have up to the minute live and localised weather feed. Intact the compass is bloody useless.

But let's bring it back to some kinda sensibility with what an iPhone can do that would be local, relevant and illegal. Clear cut.

A theodlite type app that enables me to measure the gradient of a hill. It exists. Now slope measuring laser DMD's are illegal in comp use; so it stands to reason that a phone capable of doing this should also be banned. Regardless if you have the app installed or not.

To take it one step further. It would be possible to have an app to calculate the elevation or declination and using the GPS function to mathematically calculate the revised distance based on that information.

For the above reasons, I can understand the ruling based on slope rated laser range finders. The argument for weather and compass apps being used as the reason for the ban is misunderstood and wrong in my view.

For that reason the R&A bans stands, but not because of a compass, but because of the elevation function that an iPhone can be used for. Compass and weather is a non argument, especially as more relevant 'live' info can be got just by using your senses.