Golf subs for 2014

[GreiginFife]

@Greig... you seem to be caught up with resentments around some sections of the membership subsidising others. That consideration applies where the membership is fixed (full) but is much less clear when you are recruiting new members. And even if membership is fixed - it is surely in everybody's interest to do things to encourage some key groups of members to stay - and build loyalty to the club. As mentioned - personally I really don't care if someone else's golf is cheaper than mine - if it keeps my subs down.

Just to clarify. I have no resentment as you put it. If you have a member who is paying less but with the same priveledges, what esle would you call it? I am intrigued. As to who is propping up who... What worth does a nett addition as a number have to a club (the business). If a club requires a nett income of £300k per year but sapce for 600 members, it needs that regardless of how many members it has so a member paying less than the average required from the 600 members means that they add no [business] value as they are costing the business money unless someone covers the missing money.

No, not resentment... mainly puzzlement.

 

[cookelad]

I think single figure handicappers should pay less, as we don't cut the fairways up as much, and see less of the course than the high handicappers.

Don't forget of course that if a single figure (let's say a 5) handicapper and a 25 handicapper both play the same number of rounds 75 for arguments sake, assuming they play average around their handicaps the higher handicapper is getting 1500 more shots for his or her annual subs than the low handicapper!!!! Forget age related subscriptions I'm getting ripped off because I don't hit the ball as often!

 

[jimbob.someroo]

If a club requires a nett income of £300k per year but sapce for 600 members, it needs that regardless of how many members it has so a member paying less than the average required from the 600 members means that they add no [business] value as they are costing the business money unless someone covers the missing money.

Right, good example (with just the groups discussed atm).

Club needs £300k from it's male members over 18.

At the moment, they are:
400 full payers at £600 each = £240k
100 seniors at £400 each = £40k
100 incrementals at £200 each = £20k
= £300k


They decide that they are going to charge everybody £500 and in the process gain 50 full male members:
450 full payers at £500 = £225000

but they lose 30 seniors and 50 incrementals
70 seniors at £500 = £35k
50 incrementals at £500 = £25k

= £285k

All of a sudden the club are £15,000 short which needs to be clawed back from one of the groups. You can't attract new seniors or incrementals as there is cheaper options elsewhere, how do you go about filling that gap for an extra 30 members without either raising fees for full prices or lowering them for the other brackets?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just to clarify. I have no resentment as you put it. If you have a member who is paying less but with the same priveledges, what esle would you call it? I am intrigued. As to who is propping up who... What worth does a nett addition as a number have to a club (the business). If a club requires a nett income of £300k per year but sapce for 600 members, it needs that regardless of how many members it has so a member paying less than the average required from the 600 members means that they add no [business] value as they are costing the business money unless someone covers the missing money.

No, not resentment... mainly puzzlement.

Understand

On another member having the same privileges as me and paying less? - this is fine with me if it is the sort of situation that arises if needs must to keep my subs down. I have absolutely no issue paying more than him. I play my own game and I am my own member. My only condition is that I would ask that new member or lower-rate membership initiatives should not impact significantly upon my playing or membership enjoyment.

And yes - if you need £300k a year and you have 600 members then an average £500 a year does it - and so that is what the club would work towards. But the club can't just look at this year they have to look at subsequent years - and keeping members is a lot easier than recruiting members. So some pay £450 a year whilst others £550 say? Seems absolutely sensible to me.

And I will add that many on here are debating (and complaining) about amounts of money, and differentials in subs for diff categories and ages of members, that us living in the south can only dream about. Think yourself very fortunate if you pay £500 a year for your golf when many of us are having to fork out 3x as much for - in most cases - exactly the same thing.

 

[chellie]

Just to clarify. I have no resentment as you put it. If you have a member who is paying less but with the same priveledges, what esle would you call it? I am intrigued. As to who is propping up who... What worth does a nett addition as a number have to a club (the business). If a club requires a nett income of £300k per year but sapce for 600 members, it needs that regardless of how many members it has so a member paying less than the average required from the 600 members means that they add no [business] value as they are costing the business money unless someone covers the missing money.

No, not resentment... mainly puzzlement.

I'm with you Greg. Don't see why there should be different rates once you've gone past junior stage.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm with you Greg. Don't see why there should be different rates once you've gone past junior stage.

How many 70 year olds will be willing to fork out full membership fees when they live of pensions ?

 

[bluewolf]

Oh to return to the days of full memberships, when none of these additional subscription deals were necessary...
How many clubs have full memberships (and waiting lists) now?

 

[patricks148]

Maybe, and I guess the supply and demand equation was loaded in favour of demand going back a few years so clubs weren't too worried about age breakdown as there would always have been someone waiting to fill a slot when a member left or died.

Everything I read also tells me that people are getting married later (closer to their 30s than before) so expensive things like kids and bigger houses are coming to the fore in that 30-40 age bracket. So even if football and rugby need replacing, you may not have either the time or money to join the local golf club!

Lots of factors at play, but what I do know from meeting golf club secretaries regularly is that many are concerned about the missing younger generation for the long-term well-being of their clubs

Its an Interesting one Jezz.

But did clubs ever have many members is this 20-30 age bracket anyway?

Have clubs just look at the age ranges, seen that there are not many in this group and jumped to the conclusion that they need to gain more members in this group when in fact they never have had as this group just don't fit the profile of golf membership?

Take my club, not a typical example , but i would say 90% of our members are over 50 i imagine its always been that way.

you now might just have 30 extra members paying half fee's as app to 15 paying full, if you get my drift?

 

[Hacker Khan]

I'd suggest all those that do not agree with people paying a different amount for the same service do not talk to anyone on a flight. Or on a package holiday. I totally agree it may not seem fair, but it's what some business have to do to survive.

 

[GreiginFife]

Understand

On another member having the same privileges as me and paying less? - this is fine with me if it is the sort of situation that arises if needs must to keep my subs down. I have absolutely no issue paying more than him. I play my own game and I am my own member. My only condition is that I would ask that new member or lower-rate membership initiatives should not impact significantly upon my playing or membership enjoyment.

And yes - if you need £300k a year and you have 600 members then an average £500 a year does it - and so that is what the club would work towards. But the club can't just look at this year they have to look at subsequent years - and keeping members is a lot easier than recruiting members. So some pay £450 a year whilst others £550 say? Seems absolutely sensible to me.

And I will add that many on here are debating (and complaining) about amounts of money, and differentials in subs for diff categories and ages of members, that us living in the south can only dream about. Think yourself very fortunate if you pay £500 a year for your golf when many of us are having to fork out 3x as much for - in most cases - exactly the same thing.

What I don't get is why people think, that if they are in the top tier of a tiered system, that discounts to others keeps thier subs down... where does the shortfall come from?

Also all the focus on what happens if an intermediate leaves. What if a full paying member leaves due to thier subs increasing too much to cover the "incentive" do you just recruit two more intermediates for every full rate that leaves? How long would that be sustainable for?

Its not the 'member numbers' that a club needs to survive, its the money that they bring.
As I said, if a club needs an average from a member base as a minimum to survive and it is not evenly distributed then someone has to pick up the tab for the underages. A single 22 year old member addition means nothing from a business perspective.

 

[bladeplayer]

I must admit i cant understand the amount of people who expect to pay less for the exact same service as someone else just because of your age .. i can totaly understand 2 cases
Juniors (including full time students) i agree and maybe a buffer year or two if need be to soften the blow
OAP yes

the rest .. no..
Should your car be serviced cheaper because your 20-30 ?
Should your Mortgage be lower because your 20-30?
Should you get discount on youe shopping , heating , electricity or gas because you are 20-30?

Im sorry i just dont get how able bodied adults should get a discount to partake in their hobby or past time simply because of what age bracket ..
Discounted membership should IMO mean discounted service or use of service

But as always just my opinion

 

[jp5]

A golf club must, as a business, look at its annual target income from membership fees and decide how best to achieve that. I would suggest that if that could be accomplished through a flat rate then we would be seeing most clubs offering that.

It's evidently not possible otherwise we wouldn't see clubs offering incentives to certain age groups - certainly a more complex and polemic strategy. Any business has an acquisition cost of new customers and no doubt golf clubs see this reduced intermediate rate as a way of recruiting members.

Ultimately it comes down to whether you are happy paying the price you do to play where you play.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm with you Greg. Don't see why there should be different rates once you've gone past junior stage.

Do you see that a club has to both recruit and also retain members and build loyalty?

If you can then accept that potential members are going to look for the best deal around - especially if they are younger (let's say under 30) and unsure about whether they will be in the area for long (quite possibly no local ties, family, schools etc).

Also accept that some existing members may look elsewhere if they haven't been a member for long (no loyalty built up) and others might have to consider leaving for financial reasons if subs go up too much.

Then if you are OK paying your subs you may ask yourself whether it really matters if new or existing member pays less than you. Try asking yourself what difference this actually makes to you and your membership - especially if next year, because of the member, you pay the same for your membership as you did the previous year.

 

[jp5]

I must admit i cant understand the amount of people who expect to pay less for the exact same service as someone else just because of your age .. i can totaly understand 2 cases
Juniors (including fuul time students) i agree and maybe a buffer year or two if need be to soften the blow
OAP yes

the rest .. no..
Should your car be serviced cheaper because your 20-30 ?
Should your Mortgage be lower because your 20-30?
Should you get discount on youe shopping , heating , electricity or gas because you are 20-30?

Im sorry i just dont get how able bodied adults should get a discount to partake in their hobby or past time simply because of what age bracket ..
Discounted membership should IMO mean discounted service or use of service

But as always just my opinion

Because golf clubs struggle to recruit intermediate members and see it as an incentive to safeguard the future of the club. You make out like 20-30 year olds are pining for reduced fees - it's not the case. I can only assume that intermediate members are seen as a valuable commodity by golf clubs - otherwise there wouldn't be the incentives there are to attract them.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I must admit i cant understand the amount of people who expect to pay less for the exact same service as someone else just because of your age

I'm not sure there are many individuals breezing into a golf club office and laying out to the secretary their conditions for joining the club.

There is surely a big difference between someone expecting to play less for something and a business offering that something for less. It's up to the club to determine it's recruitment and retention strategies - and these must recognise the local market conditions and environment.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So it's seems the major problem some have is between the age of 20-30 and the age of the people who have the problem are between 30-40 ( at a guess so apologies if that's not correct )

But I'm going to guess when those people were eligible for those reduced rates between the ages of 21 to 30 they actually volunteered to pay more because they felt so guilty getting something for a bit cheaper.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I'm not sure there are many individuals breezing into a golf club office and laying out to the secretary their conditions for joining the club.

There is surely a big difference between someone expecting to play less for something and a business offering that something for less. It's up to the club to determine it's recruitment and retention strategies - and these must recognise the local market conditions and environment.

You're really going to have to stop this SILH. You're talking much too logically, and if you keep doing that, we'll all end up agreeing with you about DMD's!

 

[bladeplayer]

Because golf clubs struggle to recruit intermediate members and see it as an incentive to safeguard the future of the club. You make out like 20-30 year olds are pining for reduced fees - it's not the case. I can only assume that intermediate members are seen as a valuable commodity by golf clubs - otherwise there wouldn't be the incentives there are to attract them.

ok fair comment jp, do discounted deals for people who want discounted rates tho .. .. should they really be afforded full membership ?

i just picked 20-30 as an example as it was said earlier, it goes for all brackets..

 

[bluewolf]

It seems to me that most on here are viewing this issue from a golfer perspective, rather than a Golf Clubs perspective. Take the aforementioned 600 member GC. What does the club do, if for some reason it only has 450 members, and a recruitment drive has failed? It has to either increase fees for the remaining members or attract new members. The GC studies the membership and realizes that it has very few members between certain ages (say 20-30). Therefore, this is where it targets its recruitment drive. It also may target Ladies, Seniors etc.

Unfortunately it's a classic sign of a contracting market. An expanding market would have no need of these incentives. Not enough full fee paying members to go around, so we have to attract members from other demographics.. It will get worse before it gets better....

 

[Deleted member 15344]

ok fair comment jp, do discounted deals for people who want discounted rates tho .. .. should they really be afforded full membership ?

i just picked 20-30 as an example as it was said earlier, it goes for all brackets..

Well juniors can't play before certain times

Country members can only play a certain amount

What other restrictions would you like - restrictions you would have been ok with when you paid discounted fees in your 20's

A lot can't see the bigger picture at the moment