From The Editor?

[vkurup]

Well summarised Mike... (and thanks for reading my post)

Another interesting article about Robert Rock's view on some of the issues.
http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2014/tournamentid=2014015/news/newsid=218278.html

 

[Hacker Khan]

When I'm not being logged out of the forum at random (it this just me?) I've been enjoying keeping up to date with this thread. Lots of interesting ideas and views being exchanged

A few more thoughts….

Par 3 courses
I agree this shortened time/less difficult experience offers much more accessible entry point to the game than the full length 18-hole course.

So more par 3/short courses, with cheap green fees, hire clubs to use, a more relaxed dress codes and a good wraparound experience (decent facilities/food and drink) could only help. However I believe something even more radical is needed to make the sort of step change we need to reverse the decline in participation

Big easy to hit clubs and adventure golf style have both been mentioned – I think that’s more like it…

Golf Foundation
As Fish said I’m a big supporter of this and have written several ed’s letters over the years highlighting their work and encouraging GM readers to donate a couple of quid (one of my clubs does this automatically via annual subs but the other two don’t) to the charity to help support the work they do.

The GF a great job of introducing kids to golf - mainly in a school setting - but something goes wrong under the present system (not the GF’s fault) as only a modest percentage go on to the ‘real’ game of golf. In my view this is the crux of the problem

PowerPlay
This was an idea to make golf more exciting (really with a view to making it a viable Tour event proposition) and then hoping clubs would become PP venues and host PP events as an occasional alternative to medals, stablefords.

I think it failed because it made an already tough game even tougher (its hard enough for most golfers to hit the green let alone go for a flag tucked away behind a bunker!) and among established golfers 18 hole rounds in traditional formats are still king so the desire to change wasn’t there.

Tradition
As a member of two of the oldest, most historic clubs in England, someone views themselves as a student of the history of the game, who enjoys playing foursomes, attending men only black tie dinners, drinking kummel until I cant speak and has no issue changing into a jacket and tie for lunch between rounds at places like Muirfield and Rye believe me, I get tradition. To me, it’s one of the big appeals of the game to me along with the honesty and integrity of the sport and the fact that brain often wins over brawn.

However to the outsider who might be interested in getting into golf traditions can seem baffling and/or intimidating. Over time I believe you can learn to appreciate the game’s traditions and accept golf’s many rules (be they on the course or in the club house) but at the entry point (I keep using that phrase because that’s the bit of the game about in eds letter) they are barriers to getting involved.

I think a significant percentage of posters in this thread are looking at the situation through the eyes of a person who is fully immersed in the game and probably has been for years.

It was very interesting to read vkurups post – who as a relative newcomer to the game has been through the process of ‘getting into golf’ quite recently. I doff my cap to him. That level of determination to overcome the barriers our game puts up is atypical in my view.

I suspect almost everyone who posts in the forum fits into the category of avid golfer (play on average once a week). This category is losing a few golfers but broadly speaking it’s doing OK. It’s the old 80/20 rule – 80% of golf is played by 20% and the 20% are the avids.

Looking at things from the perspective of an avid golfer can lead to an insular view of the game because the ‘problems’ avid golfers face are more along the lines of…
• I can’t get a good tee time in the medal
• The catering doesn’t start until 9am
• The depth of sand in the bunkers is inconsistent There are too many society groups at my club
• You cant play from the white tees all the time

I’m being a little flippant there but the avid players’ issues are the golfing equivalent of the phrase ‘first world problems’ – ie not being able to get any really decent Burgundy down at your local One Stop.

I doubt many of us get see what its like at other end of things – whether that be at the entry point to the game or even the situation where you’re only playing a handful of times a year and each time you pick up a club you think to yourself. “Blimey, this game is really quite difficult” – but it’s a long way from the world of the midweek roll up.

My view is that the wider game of golf turns its back on occasional and current non golfers at its peril because with a bit of effort they could be the avid golfers of the future and teeing it up with you in the 2018 Captain’s Texas Scramble

When someone says golf doesn’t need to change (as many have on this thread) it may not need to change for them to keep on enjoying their golf but it certainly does if the next generation of golfers are to be found and immersed in the game to the level we all are.

Top post, certainly the last paragraph. As someone who plays a bit more than a handful of games a week, but am not a member of a club and does find the game really quite difficult, then I completely agree with what you are saying. Well apart from liking male only black tie dinners, as that's just weird....

 

[bluewolf]

Great post Mike. In full agreement with most of it. I agree that there is a place in Golf for "Tradition". I have no issue with putting the old jacket and tie on if needs be. I've played at some great historic clubs and that is part of the experience. I do think that some very average clubs need to realize that they are no longer able to enforce such traditions and stay financially viable..

One suggestion I would make, having spoken to both my children about golf (6yr old girl and 9yr old boy), they both view golf as "boring". I believe that this would change if they were able to participate with me.. I'd like to see a series of Parent/Child competitions organised. 9 hole competitions all around the country that would culminate in a Grand Final.. I'd happily pay a decent premium for this..

 

[dufferman]

This is a great thread!

The likes of Fowler, Poulter etc who all seem to make a 'statement' on the course get people interested - my missus who, believe me, has ZERO interest in taking up the game knows both Poulter and Fowler - the one who 'sells the nice clothes' & the one who 'looks like the High School Musical guy'. I know that sounds silly, but she doesn't know who Westwood, Donald or many of the others are!

Why? Because these people are 'cool'. And golf needs to become 'cool' if the youth are going to get involved.

As much as tradition is a big part of the game, it's that that stops golf being 'cool'. It isn't 'cool' to have to wear a dinner jacket to be allowed entry to the clubhouse, nor is it 'cool' to not be allowed to use your mobile phone in there. Without leading this thread off in an all-together different direction, clubs that aren't so strict have more people in them, but never get publicity.

The BBC only show 2 golf tournaments a year. Both of which are held at the oldest, most traditional clubs you can imagine. This means that the 1 place people are likely to see Golf on TV are going to see this tradition and see it is 'uncool'.

Imagine if the Open in 2014 was held at a modern club, with a relaxed dress code in the clubhouse (and therefore the closing presentation). The winner is presented the claret jug in a relaxed outfit.

Maybe the on course commentators aren't a member of the old guard.

And at Augusta, the green jacket becomes the green hoody.

I'm taking it a bit too far now, but you get the point. The rules of golf don't have to change dramatically, I think people would find a way to play with the rules in place (When I play golf for the enjoyment with friends rather than a comp, I break some rules, because it's for fun!), but what people won't do is go to a place they feel uncomfortable. Making a golf club a place to be, much like a football club's clubhouse after a Sunday league match, makes it 'cool', and therefor gets people going there.

Before people start changing the decoration, they need to think about opening the front door...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Traditions - here's one I had a little friendly go at my club about.

New Captains drive-in on Sunday. Of course a good number of previous gents and ladies captains were in attendance and as per tradition they lined up in two rows and formed a manically grinning arch out of clubs - a tunnel of clubs - for the new ladies and gents captain to walk 'through'.

Now whilst we club members might smile and say 'how nice' - to be honest this is the sort of golf club image that to a non-golfer looks utterly and unbelievably naff and silly - and why would anyone want to be part of an institution that even thinks that such a ceremony is a good thing. Just hope it doesn't get into the local press.

Yes I know...

But you get my drift!

 

[vkurup]

Traditions
I am with Mike... I love the tradition. I think traditions define a game. The game has some very good traditions - Amateurs staying in the Crow Nest, having a black tie dinner once a year, the captain's drive in or the green jacket etc. Once you understand the history behind these, these traditions suddenly become aspiration. Every serious amateur would want to go to the Masters and stay in the crows nest or someone would want to become captain and walk thru a tunnel of clubs. I am sure Fowler will shave off his hair if he could wear the green jacket.. you get the drift. Being cool is about being relevant rather than disregarding tradition.

The issue with that there are some traditions that are have not kept pace with changes in society - male only clubs/dinners, wearing certain clothing only, too many rules that not many people understand etc. I am all for not using mobile phones in club house, but allow it elsewhere. Similarly allow DMD on phones for amateurs (as these are usually free). Dinner jacket for lunch?? now, that is a bit too far for me even though I wear a suit everyday.

IMO, relax some of these and leave some of the other traditions alone for that is what I play for..

 

[GB72]

One competition that my club holds every year which is great for getting the family involved is the golfer/non golfer 9 hole comp. Basically the golfer plays tee to green and the non golfer putts. This gets kids, wifes and other family members who are not into golf out on the course and it gives a better idea of what the sport is like than an introduction on the driving range. It is followed by beer and a barbeque

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Traditions
I am with Mike... I love the tradition. I think traditions define a game. The game has some very good traditions - Amateurs staying in the Crow Nest, having a black tie dinner once a year, the captain's drive in or the green jacket etc. Once you understand the history behind these, these traditions suddenly become aspiration. Every serious amateur would want to go to the Masters and stay in the crows nest or someone would want to become captain and walk thru a tunnel of clubs. I am sure Fowler will shave off his hair if he could wear the green jacket.. you get the drift. Being cool is about being relevant rather than disregarding tradition.

The issue with that there are some traditions that are have not kept pace with changes in society - male only clubs/dinners, wearing certain clothing only, too many rules that not many people understand etc. I am all for not using mobile phones in club house, but allow it elsewhere. Similarly allow DMD on phones for amateurs (as these are usually free). Dinner jacket for lunch?? now, that is a bit too far for me even though I wear a suit everyday.

IMO, relax some of these and leave some of the other traditions alone for that is what I play for..

In general I am with you totally on the 'traditions' front as I am a died in the wool traditionalist - but we don't need to make ourselves look silly and anachronistic to the outside world. And we do. A lot. Often.

 

[HawkeyeMS]

Traditions - here's one I had a little friendly go at my club about.

New Captains drive-in on Sunday. Of course a good number of previous gents and ladies captains were in attendance and as per tradition they lined up in two rows and formed a manically grinning arch out of clubs - a tunnel of clubs - for the new ladies and gents captain to walk 'through'.

Now whilst we club members might smile and say 'how nice' - to be honest this is the sort of golf club image that to a non-golfer looks utterly and unbelievably naff and silly - and why would anyone want to be part of an institution that even thinks that such a ceremony is a good thing. Just hope it doesn't get into the local press.

Yes I know...

But you get my drift!

Is this a golf club or the Masons ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Is this a golf club or the Masons ?

Well...precisely

 

[Hacker Khan]

This is a great thread!

The likes of Fowler, Poulter etc who all seem to make a 'statement' on the course get people interested - my missus who, believe me, has ZERO interest in taking up the game knows both Poulter and Fowler - the one who 'sells the nice clothes' & the one who 'looks like the High School Musical guy'. I know that sounds silly, but she doesn't know who Westwood, Donald or many of the others are!

Why? Because these people are 'cool'. And golf needs to become 'cool' if the youth are going to get involved.

As much as tradition is a big part of the game, it's that that stops golf being 'cool'. It isn't 'cool' to have to wear a dinner jacket to be allowed entry to the clubhouse, nor is it 'cool' to not be allowed to use your mobile phone in there. Without leading this thread off in an all-together different direction, clubs that aren't so strict have more people in them, but never get publicity.

The BBC only show 2 golf tournaments a year. Both of which are held at the oldest, most traditional clubs you can imagine. This means that the 1 place people are likely to see Golf on TV are going to see this tradition and see it is 'uncool'.

Imagine if the Open in 2014 was held at a modern club, with a relaxed dress code in the clubhouse (and therefore the closing presentation). The winner is presented the claret jug in a relaxed outfit.

Maybe the on course commentators aren't a member of the old guard.

And at Augusta, the green jacket becomes the green hoody.

I'm taking it a bit too far now, but you get the point. The rules of golf don't have to change dramatically, I think people would find a way to play with the rules in place (When I play golf for the enjoyment with friends rather than a comp, I break some rules, because it's for fun!), but what people won't do is go to a place they feel uncomfortable. Making a golf club a place to be, much like a football club's clubhouse after a Sunday league match, makes it 'cool', and therefor gets people going there.

Before people start changing the decoration, they need to think about opening the front door...

Great points there (well apart from Poulter being cool as to me putting loud clothes on does not make you cool )

Very good point about the coverage on the BBC of golf that people may see and I totally agree with your point about the presentation. It's a huge bugbear of mine in that it just sums up everything that is perceived to be wrong about golf and a part of me dies quietly when it starts. You get Dawson and the G&T blazered chinless wonder brigade speaking in plumby tones looking like your badly dressed elderly uncle at a wedding representing the game of golf at the most prestigious golf tournament in the UK. I am sure if they could get away with it the presentation committee would like the winner to bow to them or at the very least doff their cap.

Look how Wimbledon does the presentations, that place has just as much 'tradition' as any golf course, but they have dragged themselves into the 21st century.

 

[bluewolf]

In general I am with you totally on the 'traditions' front as I am a died in the wool traditionalist - but we don't need to make ourselves look silly and anachronistic to the outside world. And we do. A lot. Often.

SiLH.. You are going to have to stop making so much sense.. If you and I keep agreeing like this, people will talk..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Great points there (well apart from Poulter being cool as to me putting loud clothes on does not make you cool )

Very good point about the coverage on the BBC of golf that people may see and I totally agree with your point about the presentation. It's a huge bugbear of mine in that it just sums up everything that is perceived to be wrong about golf and a part of me dies quietly when it starts. You get Dawson and the G&T blazered chinless wonder brigade speaking in plumby tones looking like your badly dressed elderly uncle at a wedding representing the game of golf at the most prestigious golf tournament in the UK. I am sure if they could get away with it the presentation committee would like the winner to bow to them or at the very least doff their cap.

Look how Wimbledon does the presentations, that place has just as much 'tradition' as any golf course, but they have dragged themselves into the 21st century.

And our blazered lot stand on or near the 18th green behind a little wooden table with a whole load of 'whos' in a line who are only there because of their status - and kids today detest overt displays of status - as pomposity and snobbery.

 

[Hacker Khan]

SiLH.. You are going to have to stop making so much sense.. If you and I keep agreeing like this, people will talk..

I think his account has been hacked as he is talking a bit of sense now

 

[Snelly]

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

I don't agree that golf needs to change because I don't really share the view that a huge amount of effort needs to be put in to introduce the next generation of golfers. Golf is self-sustaining as there will always be people that want to play the game with their best route into golf being via family and friends. It has historically been the case, is now and probably always will be.

A new funky way of marketing, packaging and playing the game won't reverse a trend or encourage huge boosts in participation in my opinion.

Natural supply and demand will ensure that the clubs that get their product right for their location and clientele will survive and prosper. The clubs that don't will fail.

Maybe golf has gone slightly beyond a saturation point in the UK and consequently, we are in a period of natural selection?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Golf is self-sustaining as there will always be people that want to play the game with their best route into golf being via family and friends. Maybe golf has gone slightly beyond a saturation point in the UK and consequently, we are in a period of natural selection?

I disagree. The number of clubs closing continues to rise and there are many struggling to attract members. I don't think enough is being done to create members. Certainly I don't think a very large number of clubs, mine included to a certain degree, do enough to make the club a focal point and somewhere you'd consider using for a meal or social drink. It is all geared to the four (or five) hours of playing, a drink and maybe a quick bite and that's it until the next game.

I would love to see more people get into it. I think things like 60 60 golf at ranges have the potential to make hitting balls fun. If they enjoy that then some of the barriers and pre-conceptions people have may have been broken down. I don't think enough is done at grass roots level, and while the Golf Foundation and others do a job at encouraging youngsters in, there would seem to be a relatively untapped market of 25-35 year olds maybe at the end of other sporting careers like Sunday football or cricket. These may have had the odd game on a society day, but what is being done in a constructed manner, not just club by club, to tap this potentially lucrative market?

 

[JezzE]

Very interesting thread this, and I'm not just saying that because I want to keep my job!

I think that part of the problem here is that as golf diehards and forum devotees, you and I are by and large contented golf insiders looking out, which makes it quite difficult to appreciate the perspective of golf outsiders looking in.

But as Mike says, the figures don't lie and there are issues that need to be addressed, however rosy our own particular clubs and our own particular little golfing worlds are...

 

[BubbaP]

May be interesting to see if any noticeable difference in junior take up in the areas near those TopGolf places.
Again, probably not the best place for proper practice, but the few times I took the lads there they enjoyed it - sort of a cross between ten pin bowling and golf with the computerised scoring screens. If one was closer I could imagine going more regularly.

 

[GB72]

Out of interest, has golf ever attracted the age groups that are being discussed. I have not had a deep interest in the game until relatively recently in so I honestly don't know. Most people that I know who play have taken it up later in life or played when young and come back to the game. Playing devils advocate here but could the quest to spread the game through kids be a pipe dream. Is a game that needs time, patience and dedication and offers little in the way of instant gratification in any way going to appeal to the youth of today.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Out of interest, has golf ever attracted the age groups that are being discussed. I have not had a deep interest in the game until relatively recently in so I honestly don't know. Most people that I know who play have taken it up later in life or played when young and come back to the game. Playing devils advocate here but could the quest to spread the game through kids be a pipe dream. Is a game that needs time, patience and dedication and offers little in the way of instant gratification in any way going to appeal to the youth of today.

Well I started playing when I was in my early teens mostly as my Granddad played a bit. I played mostly at a 9 hole municipal course but never made the next step to an 18 hole course. I just found the game too hard/expensive/time consuming at the time. And the thought of joining a 'proper' club was way too intimidating back in the 80s when I would say the perception, even more than now, was that it was all joining fees, intimidating interviews and old people enforcing silly dress codes. And I imagine I was not alone in this.

I just think if we are relying on more 'elderly people' to keep clubs going than it is a very risky strategy. I would say that as it is so expensive/time consuming then you need an interest in the game, something to spark that curiosity to play and stick at it to such an extent that you are willing to pay a substantial amount of money to play the game. Of course there's nothing to say that more elderly people can't have that, and indeed quite a few do. But surely if you play the game when you are young and enjoy it, find it fun, then there will be a much bigger chance of you taking it up later in life? And to do that you need to attract people when they are young.