From The Editor?

HomerJSimpson

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I went to the GM Powerplay day at the Grove and according to McEvoy and PP it was going to be a big thing and get people involved in a quicker and mmore fun orientated way of playing. It seemed to get a lot of early interest but I've not seen or heard of it over the last few years and assume it has died some kind of death. It certainly isn't getting pumped around as much in the press and social media

I agree with Mike's points in that we need to get new blood involved. My club has started running a junior academy since last summer as a way of getting kids into the game but it's still hard breaking down barriers and misconceptions about the game and isn't going to grow the game nationally or globally. Like them or loathe them TM have a global brand recognition and so anything that has their name behind it as a project to get kids and families involved is going to be big news and create interest and that can only help the situation
 

CheltenhamHacker

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I like the idea of more cheap Par 3 courses. There is one in the local area that I know of, and it certainly seems popular at weekend with younger people, and beginners!

I've also heard of a course somewhere in Devon that has balls that fly like a normal ball, but significantly less distance. This means you can play a shortened course, but even if you belt it with your driver, can't hit it past 150 yards or something. Could be another idea, as less land = less maintenance = less costs = cheaper for everyone!

But mainly the Par 3 courses, we definitely need more of those, and greater publicity of them.
 

Hacker Khan

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I think some clubs don't help themselves with too many 'old guard' at the helm.

We have invested in building a very nice par 3 course and its great for homing in on your short game, but, I don't see it advertised or promoted anywhere other than our own club website! A lot of committee members and clubs are entrenched in the way they do things and 'change' can be an ugly word, and yet, we have invested in something to kick-start interest which is aside to the main course and short enough for those looking to get into the game to have some fun and hopefully take up the sport and become future full members. However, its mainly used only by the current membership.

Advertising costs are huge, so more local proactive one-to-one initiatives need to be undertaken by inviting local schools of various ages to the club for a group introduction to the sport, we have a small practice area/range up to 165yds so they would learn the basics their and then smaller groups would then find themselves going around the par 3 course under instruction.

The problem then I see is its a huge leap from the par 3 course to the main course, not as 18 holes in length but just a hole-by-hole scenario, I think if clubs had as I've seen on my travels, Blue Tees for Juniors so thus creating a shorter course, then our 1st tee turns itself from a 475yd par 4 to a say 300yd par 4 or 5. (an example but you know where I'm coming from).

I think some golf courses, there committees and overall presence can seem intimidating to the young, after-all, they can feel hostile to some of us adults when joining a new club, so, its those perceptions that need breaking down, not the rules of golf, we need to make it more inclusive, approachable and less intimidating and not the exclusive sport/hobby it can come across at present, and that starts at our own clubs. If you have the infrastructure, like we do, it will have no cost other than man hours from volunteers along with the Pro and his/her assistant, who should be rubbing their hands with the possibility that some will want to take their introductions further and become new clients.

I remember reading one of MIke's editorials back in May 2013 about the 'Golf Foundation', I'd never heard of this before and I wonder how many of our clubs really know or bother to find out what it can offer them, if anything, and what benefits they might obtain if they contributed to it. I'd like to see a campaign started here on the GM Forum and through the magazine to create a greater awareness of the Golf Foundation and in association with that, lets see how many clubs and its members pick up the baton if they really do want to see change and young development or if its just hot air and someone else's problem!

http://www.golf-foundation.org/

What he said.
 

cookelad

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Gotta admit when I first saw that "paragraph" full of randomness I nearly clicked back to the lounge, but I'm glad I didn't, well said sir, as GB72 said we could be in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if too much is changed too quickly, yes certain things need to be modernised but the integrity and traditions of the game also need a level of protection, this is a great game because it's evolved with those traditions not in-spite of them. Someone said in another thread that some of the rules are stupid, and yes they may seem that way when you first happen upon them but as you get to understand them you realise why they were put in place and worded as they are.

I don't think I'm on my own here but if people can't be bothered to play by the rules then the game is probably better off without them. You play any other sport you go around not knowing and breaking the rules you won't get to play that sport as much as those that know the rules and play nice - if I had a player in my football team who got sent off every week he'd pretty quickly find himself looking for another team to play with!
 

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Like some have already said, par 3 course are great, i live near a really nice little one and its excellent for some "quick" golf, a 2 ball can go round in under 90 minutes. they are switched on there too with night golf, kids tournaments etc too.

Getting into schools is another way, i popped to the range this morning, and my club pro was just about to host a group lesson from the local private school, shame its only the private schools though! i would like my kids state schools to get involved, either pay a pro to go to the school or something like that.

Also my local place now do kids group lessons every weekend and after school midweek, £5 for unlimited balls, club hire and tuition! thats proper cheap for a kids activity, for example, my kids have;

Swimming £133 for a 6 weeks
Drums £20 for 30 minute lesson
Stage School £350 a term! (Approx 3 months, so about £30 a session!)

So £5 for an hours golf is great value with zero investment. IF they get into it, the PGA Kids clubs are under £20 each, my lad has a 7 iron and i take him with me sometimes, he is just a bit too young still for the group lessons..
 
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Interesting issue. As someone who recently took up golf at the wrong side of 35, I can tick off all the boxes that Martin King, Mike Harris and Beau.d are referring to. I always wanted to play it, but did not know where to start or what to do – needless to say, the cost associated (both perceived and real) with golf is a real downer. So here is my journey. As they say it is a bit long as I did not have the time to write a short one.

When I started playing, I did not know anyone else who played. It took me some time to find a friend who wanted to try it out. We bought an entry level Dunlop clubs from Sports Direct and headed off to my local par 3. Soon got the courage to ask the pro for some lessons and a lot of YouTube-ing later, started to understand what the pro was asking me to do. To an ex-cricketer, golf is different, but I was happy to make a fool of myself to learn the game – believe me I got laughed at for my cover drives (still do). For over a year, it was just two of us hacking around a Par 3 and getting frustrated. Finally, I chanced upon a 9 hole improver competition with relaxed rules that my Pro runs that invites ‘golfers of all ability’ to participate and get a handicap. It took me a while to convince my friends to participate, as everyone was afraid of looking stupid. The competitive element helped bring a lot of starters into the game without the risk of looking silly. The Pro also handed out (unofficial) competition handicaps that would help people improve. Soon a few more friends joined in and we were ‘into golf’. It also helped the Pro, because all those who participate, end up taking lessons from him. Moral of the story.. the game is difficult to get into – psychologically and financially.

Over the last couple of years as I climb the golfing ladder, I have seen people of every shade. While most of the people I play with or interacted have been very good company and we have shared stories and pints together, I have come across some characters that sometimes make you wonder about the game’s future. I once played with a matchplay with a very low handicapper who walked off the 12th hole after he beat me and went and sat in the bar!! At such times, you wonder if you chose the right sport. There is a lot of resistance to change within the game and often we blame ‘old guard in positions of power’. While there is an element of truth, but if I look around, I don’t see the young blood volunteering their time to be on committees. The committee members are doing a thankless task and get beaten up for it. When I signed up to my club, I struggled to get a game as I did not have a handicap. So I sent a note to the Captain with some suggestions on how new members can gain handicaps (happy to dig it out if needed). Kudos to the Captain, they discussed it at the committee meeting and implemented a couple. Don’t forget, Golf can be a very lonely sport too, so it needs to be sociable. This is where the GM Forum has been very helpful for me. It has kept me connected to the game and I have learnt more about it on the forum than anywhere else. Moral of the story.. Play your part – contribute your ideas or time and make people welcome.

Cost is a big barrier to the game. This is both perceived and real. My first set of Dunlops cost me about £150 for the set & bag. These days I won’t get a ‘proper’ driver for that money. We all slag off TaylorMade, but if it was not for TM, I would be still be with Dunlop. Then there is green fees and membership. After I started playing 18 holes, I had to reduce my cost by playing twilight golf or some other off peak variant. I would ring around to see if the pro shop would make a deal and we would get there. I am surprised the number of course that would rather stay unused than give a 50% off to someone to use it. Luckily there are a few good courses that would happily let you in during off peak hours. What an awesome way to experience a new course and for the course to make some money. Courses should think EasyJet rather than BA when it comes to tee bookings. Finally on membership fees - my course charges about £1100 i.e. considering the national avg salary of 24K, it would cost an average Joe 5% of his salary to indulge in a past time!! There are a bizarre number of offers, but none that target people like me i.e. the weekend hack. I don’t need a 7 day membership and I cant use a 5 day membership. There is an equal amount of ‘perceived cost’ of golf. When I signed up, a non playing friend who loves the elitist feel of golf, asked me if it costs 6k to join a club!!

Time: After the cost element, I guess the time commitment is perhaps the biggest stumbling block in the game. In a family where both parents work, it is very difficult for Dad to be out most of Sunday playing golf. I am a ‘car park golfer’, but even then I don’t expect to be home before lunch on Sunday. As a public course, we have to budget upto five hours on a bad day to get thru. Unfortunately, there is not much you can do about slow play other than follow good etiquette and keep pace. This is where ideas like not looking for lost balls come handy. While playing in the US last year, I was shocked when people hook their drive, simply call a mulligan and then reload. It was a culture shock, but it kept the game moving. While I don’t advocate doing that in a competition, I can’t see a reason why you can’t do it in a social round? Similarly, in India, they recently experimented with a 14 hole competition with Darren Clarke taking part.

What are we doing: At my club, I think we are making a lot of inroads into entry level golf. We are lucky to have a 18 hole P3 pitch and putt, a 9 hole intermediate and a 18 hole championship course. In Dec we opened a Pirate island crazy golf. The car park is usually full with Chelsea tractors and in the club house you can see kids playing Scrable while on a break. It seems to host birthday parties ever weekend and it is not uncommon to see three generations of a family trying to hit a ball down the snake’s throat. Not everyone is happy with the noise and we have seen our club membership coming down over the years (cant be correlate). However, most of them have either left the game or have moved to more private members clubs. On our driving range, we now have a bin with old clubs, so people can rock up and hit a few balls. Last week, while I took the young one to a kids event, I went down to the range and hit a few balls while waiting for him. Clubs need to do more and not everything costs money. However, both the club and the members need to understand and buy in to the market they are trying to tap into. I would never dream of taking kids into a private-suit-and-tie-clubhouse.

HackGolf.. As a management consultant, I see a few of these hackatons. While the name might put people off, I think it is a great idea to open source this. There will some nuggets that will come out of it that will be useful. I will surely login and put some thoughts too. This year, I have three friends who want to join the game but are sitting on the fence for different reasons. I have offered to take them out on the pitch and putt and give it a try out. I will also scan hackgolf to look for some ideas.

Now that I am hooked onto the game, I would like to go to the next level and get closer to 80, get custom fitted, play tougher courses and at some point join a private member course. While that journey has similar challenges and it will take time to get there, I think I am converted and wont leave in a hurry. With my consultant hat on, to summarise - Given the financial, time and family commitments required to get into golf, the game needs to understand that the competition is not between different golf courses, but with different lifestyle choices e.g. football, new TV/Car, holiday, time with kids etc. The ‘upper end’ of the game i.e. those with the single figure handicap is a relatively safe and stable market. The middle ones will come and go and come back. As Mark & Martin mention, the challenge is the bottom (entry) level. As someone going thru the process, I think I can say, it is one hell’uve of a challenge.
 
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CMAC

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As Imurg said we need good Par 3 courses. They can be made to look fantastic and uber challenging as well as good to look at.
Par 3 tournament at the Masters is an obvious one.

Less clubs to carry, fast rounds, lots of fun, exact same as 'real' golf without the crazy length and drivers, less land required etc etc

My last 2 clubs have both had a par 3 course, my current one has just doubled the membership cost as its oversubscribed and a waiting list from Juniors. At school summer holidays its perfect outdoor exercise and fun for the younger generation, Dads can take their kids and even practice their shortgame themselves.


I liken entry to golf to any other sport......
I try the fun and easy artificial ski slopes before attempting a mountain in France!
I try small footy parks then 5-a-side before playing 11-a-side jnr leagues!
I try local go-kart fun days before moving up to real karts!
..you get the idea..

but in golf, friends who tried when I was younger and friends who tried when older were put on the first tee and pointed to a green which appeared to be 3 miles away to them, with a 4 ball of cat1's or regular roll ups behind them all champing to get under way.

Pressure, embarrassment, lack of confidence and no fun are the main things they get from that experience imo, not all experiences are equal but if the transition starts with fun, confidence building, inclusion and more fun it can only be positive for the game short medium and long term.

In writing this (meant it to be a few lines, sorry) it triggered memories of my first venture into golf which was a municipal par 3 pitch'n'putt, some lovely looking holes and you had a 5 iron, rubber putter and ran after the ball as it skittered to a 'green' 45 yds away, we went every other day at school holidays and we had fun, no rules, just get it in the hole in fewest shots.

My passion and love of the game is as strong now as it was then.

I wonder what would have happened if I had started on a 'big' course and the associated pressures.

Food for thought and a great thread:thup:
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Random thought off top of head given comments about par 3 courses - I'm wondering if could we create a sub-course?

My track has a quick 5-holes inner loop (5,4,3,4,3). I'm wondering if we could convert these holes into a little 9-holer from time to time for juniors or indeed newbies. Our 1st is a long par 5 - so make it 2 very short par 4s and a par 3. Our second a very long par 4 - again make it two very short par 4s and a par 3; 3rd is a par three - keep; 4th is a short par 4 - keep; 13th par 3 - keep.

So 9-hole card would be something like 4,4,3,4,4,3,3,4,3

And just have some 'temps' cut for new greens - nothing fancy at all.

This may be totally impractical - and I haven't considered whether we'd have this mini-course permanently set out and available for play at certain times etc etc. or set up from time to time. Just a random thought to create a quick and short sub-course.
 
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vkurup

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Our P3 is 18 holer.. but it is a story of two halfs. the front 9 is a 'easy peasy lemon squeezy' track where the 6-7 year olds get on the green in two. The back 9 is a different story with uphill, downhill, long holes mixed in. Once you get a hang of golf, it is interesting to see how many would rather play the back nine rather than the front!! Just goes to show that you need some stabiliser wheels at the start but then you will be on a roll soon..
 
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vkurup

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Random thought off top of head given comments about par 3 courses - I'm wondering if could we create a sub-course?

My track has a quick 5-holes inner loop (5,4,3,4,3). I'm wondering if we could convert these holes into a little 9-holer from time to time for juniors or indeed newbies. Our 1st is a long par 5 - so make it 2 very short par 4s and a par 3. Our second a very long par 4 - again make it two very short par 4s and a par 3; 3rd is a par three - keep; 4th is a short par 4 - keep; 13th par 3 - keep.

So 9-hole card would be something like 4,4,3,4,4,3,3,4,3

And just have some 'temps' cut for new greens - nothing fancy at all.

This may be totally impractical - and I haven't considered whether we'd have this mini-course permanently set out and available for play at certain times etc etc. or set up from time to time. Just a random thought to create a quick and short sub-course.

For existing courses, rather than cut up holes, would it be more practical to have a 'Junior tee' which is half way down the middle? That way the course will maintain it's 'integrity', dont spend a lot and the Juniors will know where to play all the time. Just a thought (but this is the kind of idea I would like to see in a hackathon)
 

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Very good thread and a good read, so out of curiosity I asked my 17yr daughter would she consider playing golf, without even having to think about it, her reply was, no.

I asked her why, she said golf was boring and expensive.

So I asked what could be done to improve it or what could be done to make her want to play. Simply put, she is a brand freak, if it's not labelled and in fashion it's not considered, so from that I would deduce if the top brands Adidas, Nike, Puma and others produce affordable kit aimed at the fashion conscience younger generation, that includes clubs and clothing.

On the excitement side, a little bit of tongue in cheek from her was that there should be balloons that go off and party poppers exploding when you get a good score. I think what she was referring to was a hole in one. That flippancy aside if the game could be made more exciting, not sure how, then the younger generation may become more inclined to try the game.

The other thing she mentioned was the walking, which I think is associated to being boring, walking being something old people do to keep fit, she may have a point.
 
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Hammertoe

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I think that is a fantastic post Beau and I totally agree with you, golf is what it is and we all play it because we love it, it is a ludicrosly expensive sport though if you want the best equipment, so I can see why new players would be put off, but you can walk into sports direct now and buy a full set of clubs and woods for £100, thats the same price as a good pair of football boots or a tennis racket, I absolutely agree that companies like TM need to put more money back into the sport rather than their pockets, initiatives should be brought into schools to get young people playing, when I was at school it was rugby or hockey, take it or leave it.

Sorry i'm waffling a bit, basically the game of golf is exciting enough, watch the ryder cup and tell me its not awesome, big companies need to pump more money into 'grass roots' (sorry to steal a footy term) golf, and I still feel that a lot of young people consider golf to be a fuddy duddy game played by old men wearing pringle jumpers, but that is hopefully slowly changing with the assurgance of the Rickie Fowlers and Bubba Watsons of the game.

Golf doesnt need to change, young peoples vision of it needs to
 

HawkeyeMS

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The perception of golf being boring comes from two groups of people...

  • Those who have tried it and find it boring
  • Those who haven't tried it and assume it's boring

The first group aren't likely to change. I find cricket boring, they invented 2020 and I still find it boring, nothing they do will make me want to go and play cricket so as far as golf is concerned, there is no point wasting time on them.

The second group need to be given the chance to try it. I'm sure if we got into schools we would get more kids playing, they won't all like it but you can't force them and we shouldn't in my opinion be changing the game to make them like it. Find the ones that do and focus your time on them. The other added benefit is that it is one of few sports parents and kids can actually do together, encourage the kids and you'll get some parents involved too.
 

Junior

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The game we know and love does not need to change.

The issue at hand is how to encourage people to take it up and stick it out. The simple facts are that it is extremely hard to play golf when you have never swung a golf club before, and, as pointed out above, it is very expensive. New players are therefore switched off instantly. The expensive perspective needs to change. Particularly in England.

I think members clubs and the Golf Unions need to step up here. I'm not familiar with "Hack Golf" but my own personal belief is that clubs, especially the pro's, should reach out to schools and to improve 'grass roots' golf. The pro could do lessons at the school and the clubs could run lessons for juniors on a morning in the Summer holidays. The Golf Unions could support the pro with funding for such a specific activity (provide subsidies for equipment for use in the lessons etc). Also, In addition to reaching out to schools, they should reach out to the local communities to encourage the participation of adults. The clubs and pro's should facilitate 'introductions to golf' and make it clear that it is for beginners.

Quite simply (in the main) today people have to seek out how to get into golf. Very rarely do you see pro-active recruitment targeting beginners getting into the game.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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For existing courses, rather than cut up holes, would it be more practical to have a 'Junior tee' which is half way down the middle? That way the course will maintain it's 'integrity', dont spend a lot and the Juniors will know where to play all the time. Just a thought (but this is the kind of idea I would like to see in a hackathon)

True - you could - but my idea was to find a way of using 5 holes we have that form a natural loop and don't take long to walk round - and turn them into a little nine-holer. Maybe we just would do this if we ran occasional 'open' days for non-members - and for say an hour or so of that day kids could go off the 1st tee and play this mini course.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan

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The perception of golf being boring comes from two groups of people...

  • Those who have tried it and find it boring
  • Those who haven't tried it and assume it's boring

The first group aren't likely to change. I find cricket boring, they invented 2020 and I still find it boring, nothing they do will make me want to go and play cricket so as far as golf is concerned, there is no point wasting time on them.

The second group need to be given the chance to try it. I'm sure if we got into schools we would get more kids playing, they won't all like it but you can't force them and we shouldn't in my opinion be changing the game to make them like it. Find the ones that do and focus your time on them. The other added benefit is that it is one of few sports parents and kids can actually do together, encourage the kids and you'll get some parents involved too.

So true sir! My lad is coming up 22 and about to complete his degree and expects to return to the nest - for a while at least. He looks the most unlikely golfer but he loves it and is thinking of taking it up again. He enjoys it because of the challenge and getting out. And he was a member of my place from age 11-14 and had proper lessons (then cricket became his game). He knows he can play and that although it isn't easy it's not impossible.

He's not bothered that a round of golf will take a few hours - but I can tell you for nothing that he absolutely won't put up with spending 4hrs 30mins to get round the golf course and then be told that that is OK. Absolutely a non-starter. Three and half hours - maybe a tad longer - and that's it. Even although he really enjoys the game he just won't accept 4 and half hour rounds.

Much other golf club stuff he thinks is silly but accepts it because he knows it's important to the likes of me and other members. Clothing, length of time to play and being treated like an adult and not in any sort of condescending way. These will be the things that make or break playing golf for him. And he absolutely detests any form of snobbery.

He is also quite happy with the game as it is - no need to change anything about it at all.

I'm also putting forward the idea of a father and son membership that has very significantly reduced gents membership element. Reason again goes to my own experience. I joined when my lad was 11 and we joined together. But as he was a complete newbie he only wanted to play with me and I couldn't play with him 'normal' times and couldn't fit in playing with him and playing as a normal member - so the latter gave. My golf was therefore very limited to afternoons and late in day - and I couldn't play in comps etc. B ut I've now been a member 11 yrs and my lad is still keen - and as I said above - ready to play again.
 
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CMAC

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True - you could - but my idea was to find a way of using 5 holes we have that form a natural loop and don't take long to walk round - and turn them into a little nine-holer. Maybe we just would do this if we ran occasional 'open' days for non-members - and for say an hour or so of that day kids could go off the 1st tee and play this mini course.

I see too many issues trying to effectively use the same space, might be a clubs only option though
 
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vkurup

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Sorry could not help but share this.... Nipper came back from school today and said we wanted to play golf!!! We been watching the Accenture Matchplay as I was banged up. Have to say, i was impressed with the improvisation.

IMG-20140225-00148.jpg

it only lasted about 5-7 mins after which Kung Fu Panda took over. But I will still take it.
 

G1BB0

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another issue with golf is location! Most clubs are out of or on the very edges of towns. For kids to want to play and be able to means access to courses this is an issue because unless parents are on hand to drop off/pick up then a lot wont even consider it due to the time it takes to get there (and costs as generally multiple buses or a lengthy walk may be involved).

Football etc can be played anywhere, computer games dont even need a kid to leave the house!

As golf clubs are a business in general it would be hard to have subsidised travel or special buses unless the clubs laid it on themselves.

You can have the best idea in the world but if folk can't get there then it wont work!!!
 

beau d.

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Well this has turned into a very good topic in my opinion, thanks everyone for their contributions up to now. I would like to respectfully address the editors reply, yes I had read what you had wrote properly, as I always read your article with interest when I first open the new months issue of GM, and there were many statements in that article which lead me to believe you were lending your ear towards radical changes in the game..... Quote, Changes need to be radical enough to provide a step change to spark and sustain growth in the next decade and beyond. Doing what we have always done just is not going to work, Ideas need to venture so far from tradition etc...... and after all it was your good self who ended in conceding your last two editors letters could be viewed as knocking our sport, anyway enough of that like I said my post was not intended to be a personal attack on you or anyone as after all we are all entitled to our views whatever they may be, but to address a worry I have with the insistence from many authoritative quarters that the game needed to change.

What has become very apparent from my post is that many other forum members are equally as concerned with this proposed change and I feel there has been some excellent ideas put forward which avoid the need for radical change to keep our game alive and ticking. Top of the list is the problem really lies mainly with Affordability and to a lesser degree Exclusivity of the sport.

Like I say there have been many excellent ideas muted, most are already in place, like Par 3 courses but they need to be pushed further forward and made more affordable. A well maintained Par 3 course is an excellent place for youngsters to, like most of us have, get the bug, after all it is of no use sending a young hopeful out with a 450 yd par 4 introducing them to the game, but a 90 yd par 3 will be a much more achievable introduction and much more likely to make them want to come back for more.

Municipal courses, these have been in great decline sadly as they provide a very affordable challenge where prospective golfers can cut their teeth. They are generally around £10 a round, great value in my opinion compared to a seat at the Emirates for an A rated game costing £90+ for an hour and a half.

Free game introduction classes at Golf clubs followed by game improvement classes ( I do understand many clubs already offer this facility often provided by members but we need more) for youngsters.

All of the above and similar suggestions I feel if put into place and advertised in schools etc will have the desired effect, the participants too like most of us were will become hooked on this fantastic game But! it needs financing, and like I said there is no more money at Golf Clubs at present to do so, hence my call on the big manufacturers. I am not asking them to pay mine or other established members subs if or when we fall on hard times but simply to return some of their massive profits ( The Editor states TM are making 5 million dollars available, a drop in the ocean considering their 6 month turnover was 1.012 billion dollars and they are the most profitable golf manufacturer, however I will concede it is a start) to run an under threat municipal course for a while until funds can be found instead of the course being closed, set up and finance schemes for Pros to run to give youngsters, indeed anyone a taster of the game, or better still build Par 3 and municipal courses themselves, perhaps I am living in cloud cuckoo land with my images of the future who knows.

What can GM and the likes do to help these ideas to happen, well we would be foolish to think they can change the world and force big manufacturers to stump up the cash, but what they can do is make a real big fuss and make headline news of manufacturers and the likes who do put cash into the game in the vague hope that it will encourage others to do the same
 
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