Flags Out????

[Swinglowandslow]

So has anyone ever refused to touch a flagstick in case they get a commonn cold/flu/norovirus etc etc?

Really- you still don't know the difference between those and Covid???

 

[Blue in Munich]

Where is that conclusion from, that transmission from surfaces is negligible?
Cold and flu viruses were always considered more transmissible that way before Covid came on the scene.
However, because it was not proveable evidentially* for Covid doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of transmission.
* To prove beyond doubt that a virus is caught in a particular way means that you have to eliminate all other means. Clearly you can never prove transmission by touch to that standard because people don't live in a vacuum and so it could always be said that another way of transmission was possible.
Thus the " proof "isn't certain.
But you know and I know that if viruses can live for days on metal surfaces and can be picked up by hands if those surfaces are touched, then transmission is thus achieved on quite a lot of those occasions.
Playing lawyer with the argument is being in denial.

There seems to be a move towards thinking that surfaces aren't a huge issue.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk

 

[clubchamp98]

This is comically bizarre. I have still only seen one post where anyone has said that they wouldn't tend a flag in a game of golf, but the conversation has gone polar to the point of zealotry.

A very clever lady said, "We are more alike my friends, than we are unalike."
Worth remembering.

Also worth remembering Women are not always right!

 

[BridgfordBlue]

Where is that conclusion from, that transmission from surfaces is negligible?
Cold and flu viruses were always considered more transmissible that way before Covid came on the scene.
However, because it was not proveable evidentially* for Covid doesn't mean it isn't a valid way of transmission.
* To prove beyond doubt that a virus is caught in a particular way means that you have to eliminate all other means. Clearly you can never prove transmission by touch to that standard because people don't live in a vacuum and so it could always be said that another way of transmission was possible.
Thus the " proof "isn't certain.
But you know and I know that if viruses can live for days on metal surfaces and can be picked up by hands if those surfaces are touched, then transmission is thus achieved on quite a lot of those occasions.
Playing lawyer with the argument is being in denial.

There’s been a lot of studies into it, worth looking on lancet for it. In the early days of the pandemic, it was thought that surface transmission was a high cause but that changed as more was known, the perception is still different because of the messaging campaign in the early days though. Bear in mind that surface transmission can be negated entirely by an individual and their actions too.

Personally I think if they can open up hospitality outdoors, it makes little to no sense on not allowing people to now remove flags, particularly when it’s entirely in the individuals own control to not actually touch the flag at all or mitigate the risk if they do.

 

[RichA]

Personally I think if they can open up hospitality outdoors, it makes little to no sense on not allowing people to now remove flags, particularly when it’s entirely in the individuals own control to not actually touch the flag at all or mitigate the risk if they do.

I don't think the flag touching issue has had quite the impact on the economy as the shutdown of the UK hospitality industry for most of the last year. Millions of jobs aren't dependent on your being able to request an attended flag.

 

[SaintHacker]

Really- you still don't know the difference between those and Covid???

Of course i know the difference, stop being silly. The point I'm making is about how negligible the risk is, and people now using that risk to get away from doing one of the traditional courtesies of golf. How many of the people who would do that think nothing of licking their ball to clean it, or don't bother washing their hands before getting a pint and a sausage roll?

 

[PJ87]

Of course i know the difference, stop being silly. The point I'm making is about how negligible the risk is, and people now using that risk to get away from doing one of the traditional courtesies of golf. How many of the people who would do that think nothing of licking their ball to clean it, or don't bother washing their hands before getting a pint and a sausage roll?

For crying out loud, nobody is saying people will use it to "get away" from doing it

It was more a genuine question of what if somebody has concerns?

People who don't wash their hands before a pint or sausage roll are for one filthy buggers but also won't be refusing to touch the flag I'm sure.

It's not a case of getting away with anything it's a case of there will be some people out there who won't be comfortable doing it.

 

[SaintHacker]

That's an interesting take. I wonder if post pandamic will people see s refusal to attend the flag based on no chance am I touching that

But at same time will people refuse to remove the flag for someone aswell

For crying out loud, nobody is saying people will use it to "get away" from doing it

It was more a genuine question of what if somebody has concerns?

People who don't wash their hands before a pint or sausage roll are for one filthy buggers but also won't be refusing to touch the flag I'm sure.

It's not a case of getting away with anything it's a case of there will be some people out there who won't be comfortable doing it.

Sounds to me like thats exactly what you're suggesting might happen

 

[PJ87]

Sounds to me like thats exactly what you're suggesting might happen

Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you.

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you.

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.

I get what you are saying but this thread isn't about the Dereks it's about the Dans. The ones that say they won't tend the flag because they don't think it's necessary.

 

[D-S]

Because of concerns for their health? Not just for the hell of it... Where in that post did I say people will refuse just because?

So you got Derek, 51. Shielded all year because of underlying health. He's back. Fully jabbed ready to golf up

First hole. Derek attend the flag will you.

"Sorry id rather not still bit worried"

Nobody is going to make him

If somebody say Dan, refuses on the first but then is licking his ball, touching the bins, ringing the bell but then refuses again then you have someone taking the pee.

You won't get many Dan's. But you will get a few Derek's I'm sure.

People are scared still. Rightly so. On and off the course.

‘Derek’ in your scenario is going to have quite a few problems getting through life if he is unwilling to touch any communal surfaces. We have always had people who in the past were known as a bit obsessive with hygiene, e.g. they would always use a tissue to open any door handle. This sort of behaviour is going to be more normal in future and more attention to personal hygiene by everyone is only going to be a good thing. However, you can still be very careful and live a normal life - just carry a small bottle of hand sanitiser with you and use it after touching any communal surface - a lot of us are doing this though the pandemic and I for one will continue to do so. However refusing to touch any communal surface will render you unable to get into the changing room, club house, bar, Pro Shop and therefore I suggest Derek might have difficulty accessing the golf course in the first place.

 

[BridgfordBlue]

I don't think the flag touching issue has had quite the impact on the economy as the shutdown of the UK hospitality industry for most of the last year. Millions of jobs aren't dependent on your being able to request an attended flag.

I don’t want an attended flag, I’m not particularly bothered about that, I want to be able to remove it myself. My point was I don’t really get the logic of not being able to still, given I personally can take actions to completely negate the risk of doing it.

 

[theoneandonly]

I like the flag out.
But my eyesight isn’t that good from 40’ so I ask you attend the flag for me !
You refuse.
If it was matchplay you would be standing on the green on your own.
Medal play I would hope one of the other players had the manners to help me .

Would be interested to hear from the comittiee guys on this if somebody refuses your request to attend the flag and you have a stalemate .
He won’t tend so I won’t putt.
If I walk away and claim the match what’s the comittiee decision.?

You'd lose, obviously.

 

[clubchamp98]

You'd lose, obviously.

Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.

 

[theoneandonly]

Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.

You're expecting someone to bow to your wholly unnecessary request regardless of what they think and they're the ones with bad manners?

 

[Slab]

I wonder when folk will realise that the horse is dead and has been well and truly flogged ??

Yup

Its ridiculously obvious (to me) that the attending rule is still there in the event its very windy & the pole is bending towards the player putting. Nothing to do with a players preference, necessity, comfort, likes or what they feel or suspect might occur if the ball happens to go anywhere near the hole

In such a case 99.9% will tend the bloomin thing for the player. If its rock steady the player might want to have a think about why they believe they need it tended

God knows why there’s so much digressing on the thread

 

[clubchamp98]

You're expecting someone to bow to your wholly unnecessary request regardless of what they think and they're the ones with bad manners?

You think it’s unessesary
I can’t see the hole but like the flag out, so it’s nessesary to me.
It’s a choice still in the rules of golf and refusing a request is imo bad manners.
Can’t make it any simpler .
There was a reason it wasn’t taken out of the rules, so we still have a choice.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

There seems to be a move towards thinking that surfaces aren't a huge issue.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200903/coronavirus-on-surfaces-whats-the-real-risk

I understand what they are saying, but they used somewhat strange logic, to my mind. E.g.
"But If you are trying to do things that cut your overall risk of catching COVID, obsessively wiping down every surface around you isn’t going to be very protective if it’s the only thing you’re doing. Cleaning surfaces does help if you’re doing other things, too, like wearing a mask, social distancing and washing your hands regularly. It’s another layer of safety.

Blumberg says if you put too much of your focus on disinfecting surfaces, you could miss the real COVID risks. "I find that all these contact concerns distract people from doing things that are proven to prevent transmission, like wearing a mask and social distancing," Blumberg says."

Whilst that is true, the doesn't mean that a lesser risk is no risk or a low risk just because there are other higher risks.
OF course there is high risk from breathing in droplets, but does that mean we should dismiss there being any danger from touching contaminated surfaces.
Either there is a risk from touching a surface or there isn't?
If there is a risk, why take it?
On a walk I do with my wife, there is a gate which has a metal handle to open it. I see many people just come along, one after the other and open the gate via the metal handle with bare hands.
The risk may be low, but there may be Covid virus on that metal.
I use a bit of plastic to open the gate and then bin it.
Why take the risk?
Telling me that the risk is minor compared with breathing in droplets, whilst in itself true, is irrelevant to the risk from the gate. And certainly using the comparison as an argument to support ignoring the risk from the gate is a flawed way of thinking.

 

[D-S]

I understand what they are saying, but they used somewhat strange logic, to my mind. E.g.
"But If you are trying to do things that cut your overall risk of catching COVID, obsessively wiping down every surface around you isn’t going to be very protective if it’s the only thing you’re doing. Cleaning surfaces does help if you’re doing other things, too, like wearing a mask, social distancing and washing your hands regularly. It’s another layer of safety.

Blumberg says if you put too much of your focus on disinfecting surfaces, you could miss the real COVID risks. "I find that all these contact concerns distract people from doing things that are proven to prevent transmission, like wearing a mask and social distancing," Blumberg says."

Whilst that is true, the doesn't mean that a lesser risk is no risk or a low risk just because there are other higher risks.
OF course there is high risk from reaching in droplets, but does that mean we should dismiss there being any danger from touching contaminated surfaces.
Either there is a risk from touching a surface or there isn't?
If there is a risk, why take it?
On a walk I do with my wife, there is a gate which has a metal handle to open it. I see many people just come along, one after the other and open the gate via the metal handle with bare hands.
The risk may be low, but there may be Covid virus on that metal.
I use a bit of plastic to open the gate and then bin it.
Why take the risk?
Telling me that the risk is minor compared with breathing in droplets, whilst in itself true, is irrelevant to the risk from the gate. And certainly using the comparison as an argument to support ignoring the risk from the gate is a flawed way of thinking.

There is a risk but it is easily mitigated just as you say do when opening a gate.
Exactly the same at the golf club, sanitise your hands after touching a communal surface such as a door handle, psi screen or pin - simples.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Would I?
It would be worth it to leave someone with your manners on their own.

You wouldn’t be able to claim the game imo but the other person would be asked to explain why he didn’t allow a player to play within the rules - i would DQ them for a breach of etiquette ( which I have done before )