EU Referendum

[Foxholer]

You are suggesting it is a certainty that the UK would have to accept the EU free movement of labour after Brexit.

No I am not! Simply that if the EFTA mechanism is used, as Gove stated, then that will be the case! Any other agreement, or indeed the possibility of exclusion of 'Freedom of movement of People' from UK's EFTA participation, would likely taken many years to negotiate. That was almost certainly the reason Gove went for the use of EFTA - just without knowing/caring that Freedom of Movement was a fundamental pillar of that agreement!

 

[NWJocko]

It was both. Former for the short term - latter for the long term.

Try answering the first question then if it was a lie?

I'm not actually bothered, just amusing the hideous double standards you and Doon approach these things with :rofl:

 

[SocketRocket]

No I am not! Simply that if the EFTA mechanism is used, as Gove stated, then that will be the case! Any other agreement, or indeed the possibility of exclusion of 'Freedom of movement of People' from UK's EFTA participation, would likely taken many years to negotiate. That was almost certainly the reason Gove went for the use of EFTA - just without knowing/caring that Freedom of Movement was a fundamental pillar of that agreement!

I cant see any agreement that includes TFMOL being acceptable. It's one of the main reasons people are looking to leave the EU so if we Brexit it cant really be acceptable, I think the EU would understand that.

 

[Foxholer]

I cant see any agreement that includes TFMOL being acceptable. It's one of the main reasons people are looking to leave the EU so if we Brexit it cant really be acceptable, I think the EU would understand that.

I agree!!! But 'understanding' and 'accepting' are significantly different expressions!! And that still doesn't alter the fact that Brexitting won't solve the immigration 'problem'!

The concessions Cameron negotiated seems to me to be a reflection of the limits of how far the EU (Council) is prepared to move - and retain the principles of the EU!

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree!!! But 'understanding' and 'accepting' are significantly different expressions!! And that still doesn't alter the fact that Brexitting won't solve the immigration 'problem'!

The concessions Cameron negotiated seems to me to be a reflection of the limits of how far the EU (Council) is prepared to move - and retain the principles of the EU!

IMO and many others the EU will have little choice in making a mutually acceptable free trade agreement with the UK, theres too much to lose not to. I have pointed out previously that many countries have such agreements already and they didnt take long to agree. The basis of most regulations are already in place regarding trading standards anyway.

Cameron made a poor effort in negotiating concessions and should have used more brinkmanship. I believe he stitched up the agreement in his and his political elite's interest before the talks started.

You have said a few times that Brexit wont solve the immigration problem but that makes no sense to me. If we dont have TFMOL from the EU we will have control of immigration just like most of the developed World does. It will be our choice who and how many come here other than any illegals. I guess you are not considering anyone suggests we have no immigration, no one is suggesting that.

 

[Foxholer]

IMO....

'Nuff said!

 

[Fish]

[video=youtube_share;j0pwXLtvt2w]https://youtu.be/j0pwXLtvt2w[/video]

:thup:

 

[SocketRocket]

'Nuff said!

"IMO and many others"

Enough Said!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

IMO and many others the EU will have little choice in making a mutually acceptable free trade agreement with the UK, theres too much to lose not to. I have pointed out previously that many countries have such agreements already and they didnt take long to agree. The basis of most regulations are already in place regarding trading standards anyway.

Cameron made a poor effort in negotiating concessions and should have used more brinkmanship. I believe he stitched up the agreement in his and his political elite's interest before the talks started.

You have said a few times that Brexit wont solve the immigration problem but that makes no sense to me. If we dont have TFMOL from the EU we will have control of immigration just like most of the developed World does. It will be our choice who and how many come here other than any illegals. I guess you are not considering anyone suggests we have no immigration, no one is suggesting that.

And there we have it - the #1 assertion and supposition underpinning the Brexit economic case, and for which there is nothing whatsoever coming from the rEU that supports that thinking - and indeed for which there is both a great deal of historic evidence as well as statements being to the contrary by many to suggest that that might not be the case. But OK - as you say it is only your opinion.

But here is another opinion - yesterday in the Telegraph - about the future of London as a world financial centre.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...f-london-really-a-price-worth-paying-for-bre/

 

[Hobbit]

And there we have it - the #1 assertion and supposition underpinning the Brexit economic case, and for which there is nothing whatsoever coming from the rEU that supports that thinking - and indeed for which there is both a great deal of historic evidence as well as statements being to the contrary by many to suggest that that might not be the case. But OK - as you say it is only your opinion.

But here is another opinion - yesterday in the Telegraph - about the future of London as a world financial centre.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...f-london-really-a-price-worth-paying-for-bre/

A rhetorical question. Are the bankers who brought the world's economies to its knees to believed? Are we now holding their protestations as gospel, bearing in mind we berated them for the reckless mismanagement of banking?

They may well be right but I hold their opinion on a par with both the Remain and Leave politicians.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

The Leave supporters who continually spout 'Unelected EU Commissioners making decisions' seem to totally ignore the fact that the UK House of Lords have to rubber stamp every single law passed in good ol Blighty.

 

[Ethan]

The Leave supporters who continually spout 'Unelected EU Commissioners making decisions' seem to totally ignore the fact that the UK House of Lords have to rubber stamp every single law passed in good ol Blighty.

The leave campaign is built on a faux patriotism puffing up of the chest, double talk and hypocrisy. The very proposition that we don't know what will happen after a Brexit is reason enough not to do something so stupid and reckless. The argument about faceless EU bureaucrats running the country is nonsense. People that believe they have a truly democratic and accountable Government are living in a fantasy. The Govt routinely lie,manipulate and deceive the people, who, in general, are too supine to even notice, let alone care. Some of the laws forced on the UK, including working time limits, better maternity provision and human rights are vital and we should thank the EU for them. Ironically, many of those supporting leave because of all the specious arguments don't even realise that most of the big money support is entirely self-serving and simply making fools of them.

 

[Hobbit]

The leave campaign is built on a faux patriotism puffing up of the chest, double talk and hypocrisy. The very proposition that we don't know what will happen after a Brexit is reason enough not to do something so stupid and reckless. The argument about faceless EU bureaucrats running the country is nonsense. People that believe they have a truly democratic and accountable Government are living in a fantasy. The Govt routinely lie,manipulate and deceive the people, who, in general, are too supine to even notice, let alone care. Some of the laws forced on the UK, including working time limits, better maternity provision and human rights are vital and we should thank the EU for them. Ironically, many of those supporting leave because of all the specious arguments don't even realise that most of the big money support is entirely self-serving and simply making fools of them.

Is your "stupid" opinion.

Accountable govt... Get it wrong and they don't get re-elected. I guess that kind of makes them accountable.

Do they lie? Absolutely! Are the EU politicians any better? Well I'm not that naïve (stupid) but it appears you maybe.

 

[Ethan]

Is your "stupid" opinion.

Accountable govt... Get it wrong and they don't get re-elected. I guess that kind of makes them accountable.

Do they lie? Absolutely! Are the EU politicians any better? Well I'm not that naïve (stupid) but it appears you maybe.

You are a two-faced hypocrite.

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.

 

[Hobbit]

You are a two-faced hypocrite.

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.

Wow! I didn't realise you were so precious. I think you'll find my post was in response to yours, in which you bring up "stupid" again. If you can't take it don't dish it to start with.

I hold your intelligence in high regard, and would like to sit down over a beer. But that doesn't mean I appreciate your arrogance. There's room in this world for many differences but unfortunately a lack of respect for those differences is prevalent.

 

[SocketRocket]

You are a two-faced hypocrite.

You go on and on and on and on ad nauseum about me attacking you and others, and what is your response? A hate filled expulsion of flatus.

Typical of you Brexiters, no facts, no common sense, no arguments.

You are just incapable of changing your hatred of anyone with a different opinion to yourself (and that's a lot of people). Most adults grow out of this around 10 YOA but something in your development seems to have affected it. I would suggest some form of therapy or counseling, not sure what would be suitable in your case but you will probably know best. I hope it works out for you.

 

[Ethan]

Wow! I didn't realise you were so precious. I think you'll find my post was in response to yours, in which you bring up "stupid" again. If you can't take it don't dish it to start with.

I hold your intelligence in high regard, and would like to sit down over a beer. But that doesn't mean I appreciate your arrogance. There's room in this world for many differences but unfortunately a lack of respect for those differences is prevalent.

I didn't call you stupid. I called the position of many Brexiteers stupid. I wasn't even responding to a post of yours. But you called me stupid (amongst other things).

 

[Ethan]

You are just incapable of changing your hatred of anyone with a different opinion to yourself (and that's a lot of people). Most adults grow out of this around 10 YOA but something in your development seems to have affected it. I would suggest some form of therapy or counseling, not sure what would be suitable in your case but you will probably know best. I hope it works out for you.

I see you know as little about counselling as you do about the EU. My post wasn't addressed to you or about you, but your skin is a thin as your opinions.

The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial.

Note that I haven't accused anyone of needing counselling or therapy. Questioning someone's mental health is considered on many fora a very serious breach of rules and etiquette. I have long since given up any expectation of you having some manners, but I would expect even you to refrain from accusations of mental health issues. You should carefully consider your last comment. I will refrain from responding in kind.

 

[Old Skier]

The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial..

Welcome back Walter, as most of your post fill the above statement we seem to have the pot and kettle statement to end all statements.

 

[SocketRocket]

I see you know as little about counselling as you do about the EU. My post wasn't addressed to you or about you, but your skin is a thin as your opinions.

The Brexit campaign is the Hate campaign, based on xenophobia and concrete thinking. Sorry if you don't like that. If so you are in denial.

Note that I haven't accused anyone of needing counselling or therapy. Questioning someone's mental health is considered on many fora a very serious breach of rules and etiquette. I have long since given up any expectation of you having some manners, but I would expect even you to refrain from accusations of mental health issues. You should carefully consider your last comment. I will refrain from responding in kind.

Exactly. My comments were as crass as yours suggesting Brexiters were mentally subnormal.
Thought you would have been clever enough to notice thel parallel I was making.