EU Referendum

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The problem with the letters to the press and these companies coming out in support of remaining is shown up when you delve into some of the figures.

The original letter was signed by 198 Business Leaders and was trumpeted as having 36 of the FTSE 100 companies as signatories. This means that almost 2/3 of the FTSE 100 companies declined to sign the letter. Between 2007 and 2014 those 36 companies spent a little over 23 million Euros lobbying the EU and in return received just under 121 millions Euros in grants. Small wonder they want to remain if they are getting a 6 fold return on their lobbying investment.

The situation is similar for those in science and research in that they are getting much of their funding from the EU so of course will want to remain.

And if you're wanting business leaders that support a Leave vote then there are always JCB, Tate and Lyle, JD Weatherspoon, Dyson and Lloyds Banking Group.

This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss. GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that. If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it. But we are not. They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks. And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison. And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.

 

[SocketRocket]

Seems to be an assumption from the brexiters that they can keep everything they like about the EU while dumping the parts they don't like. Sort of all the benefits with none of the responsibilities. I'm not buying that, I'm afraid.

I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement. The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on. There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it. Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there. Simples!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Semantics, and you know it. One person's scaremongering is another's lie. Call it positive if you want but its still guess work. Its this exact thing that really pee's me off from both sides. You genuinely believe what one sides says whilst totally dismissing the other side. There's been so many intelligent people say nobody knows exactly what it will be like post referendum.

First of all, David Cameron went and renegotiated what? He's got nothing yet. He has a list of changes to our T&C's that still have to be ratified by the other member nations. That in itself means we don't know what the EU will be like for the UK post Remain. Secondly, no one knows what will be negotiated post exit, via Article 50, until those negotiations take place.

Both sides are guilty of scaremongering, and each side says they aren't they are telling the truth.

A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought. When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong. Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case. Nothing of the sort from Brexit. Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks Remain are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes exactly the Remain point, you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.

 

[SocketRocket]

This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss. GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that. If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it. But we are not. They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks. And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison. And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.

Funny how you people suddenly are happy to be in Bed with big global business when we have heard nothing but stories about how they are bad for working people, don't pay their taxes are ruthless at sacking people to make a buck, only have loyalty to their super rich owners who live in tax free havens.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement. The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on. There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it. Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there. Simples!

If it were so simple why are so many major businesses, and indeed whole industries, against leaving. These are businesses primarily out to make as much money as possible and make the right decisions for their shareholders. That is what the are legally obliged to do. If they felt they could make as much or more money if out of the EU that is what they'd be telling us. But they are not.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think the only thing most people like is a free trade agreement. The rest is a mixture of measures that we are capable of managing ourselves or could continue to cooperate on. There aren't that many benefits really, we pays in our money,they spend it and we get some of it back but not all of it. Why cant we keep our money, spend it on what we want and let them sell their stuff here while we sell less over there. Simples!

That's exactly what I'm getting at. The assumption that all the good stuff will continue without the supposed bad stuff. Just seems hopelessly naive to me.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And Hitachi - original comments from a couple of months back

http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co...denhead-because-of-EU-membership-24022016.htm

Hitachi, which employs 250 people at its European headquarters in Lower Cookham Road, Maidenhead, says one of the reasons it based itself in Berkshire is because of Britain’s open EU links with the Continent.

A spokeswoman said: “Hitachi invested in the UK in order to access the whole of the EU market.

“Unimpeded access to the EU market is fundamental for our position in the UK. Whilst we recognise this is a decision for UK voters, from our overall business perspective, Hitachi hopes the referendum will result in a positive decision to remain in the EU. We believe that a united Europe with the UK in a single market will be better for prosperity in Europe as a whole and therefore for Hitachi’s business.”


GSK, AstraZeneca, Pfizer

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/07/brexit-uk-medicines-cameron-eu-referendum

 

[SocketRocket]

If it were so simple why are so many major businesses, and indeed whole industries, against leaving. These are businesses primarily out to make as much money as possible and make the right decisions for their shareholders. That is what the are legally obliged to do. If they felt they could make as much or more money if out of the EU that is what they'd be telling us. But they are not.

And these Businesses would make less money if were out of the EU because? You might recall how many of these big businesses said if we didn't join the Euro then all kinds of serious repercussions would befall our economy and their business. Many of these multinationals have branches all over the world, how on earth do their divisions manage outside the EU? People make decisions to adopt change all the time, they often have to fly by the seat of their pants for a while but so often it can be the best thing they have ever done, I expect many of us have done the same. Grasp the day!

 

[Hobbit]

A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought. When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong. Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case. Nothing of the sort from Brexit. Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks Remain are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes exactly the Remain point, you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.

Did you bother reading the second paragraph from my post you quoted, or the last sentence?

You've not answered either point, as you often don't when it doesn't suit. BOTH SIDES are scaremongering. If you think otherwise you are blindly following one side like a sheep.

Do I believe all the dross coming out from both sides? No. Neither side is doing their respective cases any favours by up the ante on fear.

Y2k; I've not heard it mentioned once. It's obviously not a major point. So what is the Remainers standpoint on Turkey? What's their take on Greece? Do they feel the Visigard 4 and the increasing influence they have is worrying? It's getting like the Eurovision Song Contest with Eastern European countries all voting for each other.

What is the relationship with other countries outside of the EU when it comes to intelligence sharing and security matters? Which stupid idiot of a Remainer said our NATO membership is in danger if we left the EU? - Pretty sure Canada, America and Norway are in NATO but not in the EU.

 

[ColchesterFC]

This wasn't the only point that they made - and these weren't your geeky scientists that Brexiteers felt it so easy to dismiss. GSK, Pfizer and AstraZenica are just a bit more than that. If these companies thought their interests were better served OUT then we'd be hearing about it. But we are not. They clearly see the benefits of being IN - and their not being replicated OUT.

And this list of those supporting Brexit is getting a bit dated - these names seem to be the ones that have been being used by Brexit for the last good number of weeks. And I suggest that comparing a pub chain with the three main businesses in one of the UKs most important and profitable industries is stretching the comparison. And may as well drop Lloyds Banking group from your list as we are told by Brexit that we can't trust a word bankers say.

And you're just happy to accept these statements on face value?

In 2014 GSK were awarded over 15 million Euros from the EU for research into Ebola and trials on vaccines.
In 2015 GSK were one of 15 partners to share 15 million Euros from the EU for research into osteoarthritis.
In 2016 GSK were one of 5 partners to share 8.3 million Euros from the EU for research into nanomedicines being used to fight cancer.

Astra Zenica were one of the 36 FTSE 100 companies that received a 6 fold return on their lobbying investment.

And to freshen up the Leave list I'll add Reebok and Phones 4 U.

And that's just from a quick Google search. Despite being pro remain I can't help but feel that this whole campaign is becoming a Cameron/Government stitch up with all their mates in big business being coerced into making statements supporting the Remain vote. Our safety won't be compromised by voting to leave the EU. GCHQ will still do what they have been doing and intelligence will still be shared. We would still import from and export to the EU.

 

[Hobbit]

Thank you BBC. In this morning's interview with Philip Hammond the interviewer asked how on earth the public can make a reasoned judgement when there is claim and counter claim. Philip Hammond admitted that there were positive arguments from each side, and it was up to the public to weigh the balance of those arguments.

And thank you Philip Hammond for giving an honest answer. Irrespective of him then going on to various other things, at least he recognised that there are positives for both sides.

 

[Old Skier]

A bit like Brexiteers quoting Y2K as a scaremongering lie that the UK public bought. When if you were at all involved in Y2K (as I was) then you'll appreciate the difference between doing something to minimise risk of Y2K issues hitting us; or sitting on our backsides hoping that nothing would go wrong. Very little went wrong at the turn of the century because industry and business recognised the risk and did a lot to remove the risk in some part; mitigate it in others; and have contingency plans in place just in case. Nothing of the sort from Brexit. Just sitting, hoping and wishful thinking.

But Y2K still being put forward by Brexit as an example of scaremongering that came to nowt and so something directly comparable to the risks Remain are pointing out about leaving, when in fact Y2K makes exactly the Remain point, you can't just hope and ignore the risks as Brexit are doing.

I was involved and although there were some issues it was nowhere near a problem that those in the industry made out and convinced businesses world wide. Although some spend was required it cost all areas a fortune when it wasn't needed.

The real winner was the IT Industry.

 

[MegaSteve]

You missed the scaremongers from MI6 and MI5, both of which said we'd be less secure outside of the EU.

Except my point is that the CEOs were making the positive point and not scaremongering. Security matters is all about minimising risk and MI5 and MI6 will pick up on anything that they think increases risk. If leaving the EU reduced risk them they'd let us know - as improved and maintaining the security of the UK and our interests overseas is their raison d'etre.

Were this pair from the gaggle of 'experts' recently telling Londoners we were at risk from being slaughtered in our sleep if we voted for a Muslim as next Mayor of London...

Witness Fallon doing some serious backtracking, on the telly, Saturday...
Basically they are voicing exactly what central office tells them to do so...

And, as for citing Pfizer as a supporter of the UK... Finding that mildly amusing with them having shed hundreds if not thousands of jobs, here in the UK, in recent times

 

[Hobbit]

From BBC Breakfast News this morning, "Support for Remain amongst business leaders drops from 60% to 54%."

Also, "the EU funds science and research around the world, not just within the EU."

Kind of blows out of the water a lot of the black and white statements made on here...

 

[ColchesterFC]

Cameron has described his renegotiation package as "substantial" and called it an "additional reason" to stay in the EU but shouldn't be taken in isolation when weighing up the broader benefits of membership. Regardless of whether you agree with his description of the renegotiation it wasn't long ago that he was saying that if he didn't get the reforms he wanted then he could support a vote to leave. So what are all these broader benefits that he has discovered since his, in my opinion, failure at renegotiation? And why would it now be such a disaster to leave when not that long ago he indicated that he could support a leave vote?

 

[Aztecs27]

I've not got the time read all 48(!) pages, but just in case it's not yet been mentioned;

Both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are all for the Brexit campaign....If that's not reason enough to vote to stay in, I don't know what is. :thup:

 

[FairwayDodger]

I've not got the time read all 48(!) pages, but just in case it's not yet been mentioned;

Both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are all for the Brexit campaign....If that's not reason enough to vote to stay in, I don't know what is. :thup:

Add boris to that list.

But Cameron, sturgeon and Osborne want us to stay in.

Can I abstain?

 

[Aztecs27]

Add boris to that list.

But Cameron, sturgeon and Osborne want us to stay in.

Can I abstain?

Ha! Well yes, it's the lesser of two evils isn't it? But If I had a gun to my head and had to pick, I'd be more comfortable with the latter group of clowns. At least they're just public school buffoons and not homophobic, racist muppets like the majority of the powers backing Brexit.

 

[SocketRocket]

Doon's recent poll predictions seem to have taken a knock:

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

 

[SocketRocket]

Ha! Well yes, it's the lesser of two evils isn't it? But If I had a gun to my head and had to pick, I'd be more comfortable with the latter group of clowns. At least they're just public school buffoons and not homophobic, racist muppets like the majority of the powers backing Brexit.

I think it's what the UK population want that matters. Most of us are bright enough not to be influenced by the people you mention.