EU Referendum

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vkurup

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I was in India for a few weeks and got to speak to a few friends who have business interest with the UK. So my 2 bits from the other side on how Indian biz is looking at Brexit. It is based on unscientific and negligible sample size (and influenced by loads of dram)

Disclaimer: My views are purely based on observations and discussions with friends & family based in India who do business with the UK (and the world). I am sure there is a equal and opposite political & rational view that can provide a rebuttal to every point above. Also, this might not have the same gravitas as Obama's version, but it was interesting to hear this from the perspective of the emerging markets.


1) Currency - Over the past few weeks, the GBP v INR has been unstable. Intra-day fluctuations have been a bit manic as we get into less than 90 days into the referendum. Indian exporters incl the IT industry are very conscious of the exchange rate as this has a big impact on bottomlines. So GBP currency hedge premiums are going mental. No one knows what the value of the GBP would be in case of an exit. The only view is that it is likely to drop about 10% in the short term, but could go as low as 50% over a longer term. Nothing scientific, but plenty to speculate

2) Role of UK: Given the common language and the history, UK is seen as a safe haven and a spring board into EU. The UK legal system (on which the Indian legal system is based) is well understood and a lot of Indian business work with the EU under English & Welsh laws. No one knows what will happen to this. Equally the UK financial system is a bedrock of the global financial quagmire. While it is unlikely that London will disappear as a financial hub in the next 10 years, no one can predict the impact of the exit on financial industry. Down south, the financial industry is akin to the drug industry - but this drug supports a wider economy and keeps taxes in check and pays for NHS, Defence etc. So a longer term demise of the financial industry will have a domino effect on the remaining sectors. There will be a run on the property market in London as people will cash out on some of their investments.

3) Free trade agreements: No one really buys into the political spin that the UK will renegotiate all their trade agreements and therefore business will look outside the UK to manage this. Given that the size of the Indian economy and its growth far exceeds the UK, they think they can negotiate a better trade agreement than a smaller UK. There will be a number of Industry bodies from France, Germany etc that will start queuing up to sign up and provide the next 'springboard'. Switzerland with existing connection may be better placed to replace the UK as that springboard despite being outside the 'core EU'


4) Relevance of the UK: Currently the UK punches far above its weight on the world scene. There are many historical, strategic, military, financial reasons for that. One of those pillars is the UK role in EU which amplifies its size many times over. Without this amplifying effect it reduces that significance in the modern world. If the UK opts out, it is highly likely that the Salmon, Sturgeon & Co will force Scotland out of the UK thereby making it even smaller a la Iceland - and who remembers Iceland after their world dominating banks disappeared?


The reality is that no one really knows what the impact of the exit would be. The consensus was that with a weaker pound and a common language, the rUK will be good for tourism and education. But beyond that, the business prospects within rUK will be much smaller and less profitable. The strength of the currency is speculative, but likely to go down over a period of time. Everyone is hoping that Joe public will ignore the political rhetoric and vote to stay in. If UK votes to stay in, there will be some firecrackers being set off in celebration - just as some folks did when Scotland decided to stay. India does have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay inside the EU as it sees UK as a much stronger business proposition than a smaller rUK.
 

jp5

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I don't think anyone doubts other populations would prefer us to stay in. Question is whether it's in the interests of the British people as a whole. That is a much more finely balanced proposition.
 

SocketRocket

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I was in India for a few weeks and got to speak to a few friends who have business interest with the UK. So my 2 bits from the other side on how Indian biz is looking at Brexit. It is based on unscientific and negligible sample size (and influenced by loads of dram)

Disclaimer: My views are purely based on observations and discussions with friends & family based in India who do business with the UK (and the world). I am sure there is a equal and opposite political & rational view that can provide a rebuttal to every point above. Also, this might not have the same gravitas as Obama's version, but it was interesting to hear this from the perspective of the emerging markets.


1) Currency - Over the past few weeks, the GBP v INR has been unstable. Intra-day fluctuations have been a bit manic as we get into less than 90 days into the referendum. Indian exporters incl the IT industry are very conscious of the exchange rate as this has a big impact on bottomlines. So GBP currency hedge premiums are going mental. No one knows what the value of the GBP would be in case of an exit. The only view is that it is likely to drop about 10% in the short term, but could go as low as 50% over a longer term. Nothing scientific, but plenty to speculate

2) Role of UK: Given the common language and the history, UK is seen as a safe haven and a spring board into EU. The UK legal system (on which the Indian legal system is based) is well understood and a lot of Indian business work with the EU under English & Welsh laws. No one knows what will happen to this. Equally the UK financial system is a bedrock of the global financial quagmire. While it is unlikely that London will disappear as a financial hub in the next 10 years, no one can predict the impact of the exit on financial industry. Down south, the financial industry is akin to the drug industry - but this drug supports a wider economy and keeps taxes in check and pays for NHS, Defence etc. So a longer term demise of the financial industry will have a domino effect on the remaining sectors. There will be a run on the property market in London as people will cash out on some of their investments.

3) Free trade agreements: No one really buys into the political spin that the UK will renegotiate all their trade agreements and therefore business will look outside the UK to manage this. Given that the size of the Indian economy and its growth far exceeds the UK, they think they can negotiate a better trade agreement than a smaller UK. There will be a number of Industry bodies from France, Germany etc that will start queuing up to sign up and provide the next 'springboard'. Switzerland with existing connection may be better placed to replace the UK as that springboard despite being outside the 'core EU'


4) Relevance of the UK: Currently the UK punches far above its weight on the world scene. There are many historical, strategic, military, financial reasons for that. One of those pillars is the UK role in EU which amplifies its size many times over. Without this amplifying effect it reduces that significance in the modern world. If the UK opts out, it is highly likely that the Salmon, Sturgeon & Co will force Scotland out of the UK thereby making it even smaller a la Iceland - and who remembers Iceland after their world dominating banks disappeared?


The reality is that no one really knows what the impact of the exit would be. The consensus was that with a weaker pound and a common language, the rUK will be good for tourism and education. But beyond that, the business prospects within rUK will be much smaller and less profitable. The strength of the currency is speculative, but likely to go down over a period of time. Everyone is hoping that Joe public will ignore the political rhetoric and vote to stay in. If UK votes to stay in, there will be some firecrackers being set off in celebration - just as some folks did when Scotland decided to stay. India does have a vested interest in wanting the UK to stay inside the EU as it sees UK as a much stronger business proposition than a smaller rUK.

I just don't get this 'Our power is amplified inside the EU' How does that work then? We are in a minority position and are consistently outvoted on policy issues. The recent embarrassing grovelling for concessions by our prime minister was a true reflection of how much say and power we have in the EU. We cant even decide what level of benefits we give to foreigners. I despair at other countries telling us what is good for us when they would never accept such rules and regulations themselves. Our future is for ourselves, not what others think is in their best interests.
 

drdel

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India, like many other countries, find the UK a significant market. Obviously they would prefer less uncertainty.

However our MEPs have constantly been on the loosing side when voting in Brussels. So the EU can hardly claim to have made decisions in the UK's interests (assuming our MEPs reflected our interest).

The EU has fundamental problems which the ECB has been trying to solve by printing money - this is not sustainable and Germany is already trying to get the ECB to revise their strategy but the ECB's is not accountable. The Eurozone members are very concerned by Brexit because of the 'house of cards' based on the unsustainable debts that the ECB and the IMF continue to let rise.

If the UK remains part of the EU the UK will be forced to accept a large part of this huge increasing debt.

In my opinion, the EU's uncontrolled debt mountain is a far bigger risk than empty threats from other countries who are concerned with short term currency fluctuation and will not want to stop exporting to the UK.
 

FairwayDodger

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Interesting bit on the news.

Should ex-pats get a vote in the referendum? I think so, especially those living in Europe as they will be on the "front line" for any changes in our relationship with the EU.
 

Lord Tyrion

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FD - They do if they are an ex-pat and they left the UK within the last 15yrs. People who have lived out of the country for longer than 15yrs lost their case for a vote today in a judgement. Quite right too. You left. Game over. If you want to influence what happens in a country in an election then live there, pay your taxes there. You can't move away, contribute nothing more but still expect to hold influence when the consequences will not directly affect you. Personally I would have the ex-pat limit at 5yrs, not 15yrs but that is not going to change for this vote.
 

FairwayDodger

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FD - They do if they are an ex-pat and they left the UK within the last 15yrs. People who have lived out of the country for longer than 15yrs lost their case for a vote today in a judgement. Quite right too. You left. Game over. If you want to influence what happens in a country in an election then live there, pay your taxes there. You can't move away, contribute nothing more but still expect to hold influence when the consequences will not directly affect you. Personally I would have the ex-pat limit at 5yrs, not 15yrs but that is not going to change for this vote.

Ah, cheers. I caught the end of that so assumed it was all ex-pats.

Can't agree with your assessment, though. Yes in terms of a general election but not a referendum of this nature.
 

Lord Tyrion

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Why should they influence what happens to the UK when they have left? They will not bear the consequences. I understand why 5yrs may be too harsh but the current limit of 15yrs is more than enough to work out if you are going to come back or not. If you have lived in another country for 15 yrs it tends to suggest that is your home now and you should not be able to affect what happens here any more.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Ah, cheers. I caught the end of that so assumed it was all ex-pats.

Can't agree with your assessment, though. Yes in terms of a general election but not a referendum of this nature.

Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum? I left Scotland in 1984. But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.
 

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Should I have had a vote in the Scottish referendum? I left Scotland in 1984. But being Scottish the Indy Referendum was really important to me.

Not in my view.

From your other thread the POTUS elections are important to you, would you like a vote in that aswell?!

I agree that those who have made their bed elsewhere shouldn't have a vote, just as I shouldn't in the Scottish referendum.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Not in my view.

From your other thread the POTUS elections are important to you, would you like a vote in that aswell?!

I agree that those who have made their bed elsewhere shouldn't have a vote, just as I shouldn't in the Scottish referendum.

As it happens in the end I reconciled myself with not having a vote. My argument was the outcome would affect me - albeit through my mother - but realised that that argument could probably be used by every ex-pat - and on these grounds I accepted I was out.
 

SwingsitlikeHogan

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Arguably yes. I saw this one both ways at the time. Different from the ex-pats though as it wouldn't have impacted your situation as a British citizen living in England.

My thoughts at the time were that with an elderly mother and being the eldest son - what happens in Scotland politically and hence in respect of care for the elderly, Scottish NHS etc would impact me as a knock on effect from how it might affect my mother. And that is exactly how it is today. My mother is in E-o-L (palliative) care in Glasgow (all praise to the Scottish NHS btw as the care she is being given is exemplary - with kindness and compassion at it's heart). Significant changes to her care circumstances tomorrow would impact upon me the day after.
 
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SwingsitlikeHogan

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Why is it important to you if you don't live there anymore? If there was a vote to make England independent would you feel entitled to a vote?

I explained why I felt it important at the time - I also mentioned that I reconciled myself back then with not having a vote. On the EU? Ex-pats probably not - but if they can up to 15yrs away then that's how it is.
 

Doon frae Troon

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Latest poll suggests that England and Wales will vote narrowly for leave, NI narrowly for stay and Scotland strongly for stay.
Add it all up and it will be a narrow win for stay.

Seems like this 'Better Together' thing is finally working.:lol:
 

SocketRocket

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Latest poll suggests that England and Wales will vote narrowly for leave, NI narrowly for stay and Scotland strongly for stay.
Add it all up and it will be a narrow win for stay.

Seems like this 'Better Together' thing is finally working.:lol:

You sound a bit desperate. It will be what it will be and polls are not will not be accurate.
 
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