EU Referendum

[MarkE]

You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell? How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world. All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people. Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with. You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east. Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU. And why do they bother with the EU? Because of the size of the market and the single market. The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam. And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU. Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK. Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.

I can't wait until we are able to again, make our own trade deal. Vietnam? hardly a fair comparison. We are the 5th largest economy in the world man, everyone will trade with us. Have a bit more faith.

 

[SocketRocket]

Is that the dictionary definition of an insular Littke Englander?

Dont know what a Littke Englander is. How has this debate become one about Englanders little big or otherwise, last time I looked the referendum was for the UK; or are you insinuating that only English people are insular.

Lets look a little more into that term, Little Englander. It's origins were to describe someone who disagreed with the expansion of the British Empire. If you are using the insult to suggest anyone who has a preference for the UK to forge it's own future without the interference of the EU as 'Little Englanders' then bring it on for me as thats exactly what I am.

 

[Old Skier]

Insult anyone with a different view to your own with. Yawn.

Fixed that, he has form.

 

[SocketRocket]

As Shakespeare's death 400 years ago is a current thought maybe we could use some of his works in our debate:

To be in, or not to be in- that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of EU troubles,
And by opposing end them.

 

[SocketRocket]

Heres a real 'Little Englander' piece to lift the spirit

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility:
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favour'd rage;
Then lend the eye a terrible aspect;
Let pry through the portage of the head
Like the brass cannon; let the brow o'erwhelm it
As fearfully as doth a galled rock
O'erhang and jutty his confounded base,
Swill'd with the wild and wasteful ocean.
Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

 

[Ethan]

Dont know what a Littke Englander is. How has this debate become one about Englanders little big or otherwise, last time I looked the referendum was for the UK; or are you insinuating that only English people are insular.

Lets look a little more into that term, Little Englander. It's origins were to describe someone who disagreed with the expansion of the British Empire. If you are using the insult to suggest anyone who has a preference for the UK to forge it's own future without the interference of the EU as 'Little Englanders' then bring it on for me as thats exactly what I am.

As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union.

Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.

 

[ColchesterFC]

As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is always applied to anyone who has a different opinion to Ethan.

Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.

Fixed that for you!

 

[MegaSteve]

As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union.

Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.

I've suffered enough upper middle lower management bully boys to recognise one wearing the badge so well...

 

[SocketRocket]

As you know, in modern use, the term Little Englander is defined in slightly different terms, according to Wikipedia:

"Little Englander" is an epithet applied in criticisms of British nationalists, English nationalists, or English people who are regarded as xenophobic and/or overly nationalistic and are often accused of being "ignorant" and "boorish". It is sometimes applied to opponents of globalism, multilateralism and internationalism, such as those who are against membership in the European Union.

Sounds spot on. You match the definitions from the early 19th Century until now. Well done. Consistency if nothing else.

So it's only English then. I should tag the Racist label to that comment but as I am more of an easy going type I will just put it down to the rantings of a screwed up individual that has a rather inflated opinion of himself; thus needing to revert to personal attacks to anyone having a different opinion to his own. Physician, heal thine self :rofl:

 

[Hobbit]

You really think that things couldn't be worse - on what evidence pray tell? How about they'll be worse whilst the UK goes through the pain and years re-negotiating the 50+ significant economic agreements developed over the last 40yrs that the EU has in place with the rest of the world. All deals that the rest of the world has negotiated with the EU - a market of 250m people. Of course they'll be enthusiastic in negotiating better deals with us - a country of no consequence in the context of the EU market they have existing deals with. You are seriously deluded.

As Andrew Rawnsley writes today about Vietnam - a significant future economy in the east. Whose major trade agreements are in SE Asia , China, and Australasia - and also with the EU. And why do they bother with the EU? Because of the size of the market and the single market. The UK out of the EU would be of very little interest to Vietnam. And yet Brexiteers tell us that the likes of Vietnam are those countries and economies that a Brexitted UK would be able to fully work with to greater benefit when we are out of the EU. Except Vietnam wouldn't be interested in the UK. Where is the Vietnamese minister telling us how much they look forward to developing new agreements with a Brexitted UK - not hearing very much from anyone on that front.

And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?

No

Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under £5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore unfounded rubbish you wish to share?

 

[MegaSteve]

I'm afraid that no amount of wishful thinking is putting that genie back in the bottle.

Sadly, you are almost certainly right...

Pleased though, to see 25-30 thousand out protesting against it in Hanover this weekend...

 

[Old Skier]

I presume Mr Corbyn will come across to the Dark Side as it now appears that a big hole will be shot through workers rights IF the US trade deal ever gets signed. Looks like the decade of negotiation looks like a good deal.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?

No

Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under £5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore unfounded rubbish you wish to share?

maybe you need to read Andrew Rawnsley's commentary pierce (in the Observer yesterday) - you can then tell us that's HE'S talking rubbish about Vietnam and explain why.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And on what evidence do you have that the likes of Vietnam won't want a trade deal with the U.K.? Have they written to you and advised you? Have you sat and had tea with their ambassador? Has their Prime Minister phoned you?

No

Let's be honest here, you're guessing. And you're using that guess to bolster your argument.

Here's a question for you. Would Vietnam rip up the trade agreement they have with the U.K. that has been in place for 6 years.... And by the way, our trade delegation is just back from its fifth visit in those 6 years. Our trade deal with that market is currently worth just under £5billion. And shock of shocks, we also have a bilateral agreement on law enforcement.

My facts are from the Department of Trade and Industry's own website, not some reporter trying to sell copy.

Have you got anymore unfounded rubbish you wish to share?

This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

And as far as the UK has with Vietnam. I do have to ask how much this deal was based upon the UK being in the EU? Because that's the thing with all trade deals made with the UK over the last 40 years - they have been made on the knowledge that the UK was a member of the EU.

 

[Hobbit]

maybe you need to read Andrew Rawnsley's commentary pierce (in the Observer yesterday) - you can then tell us that's HE'S talking rubbish about Vietnam and explain why.

And maybe you need to read the DTI's report BEFORE you try to 'sell' it in support of your argument. I'll stick with hard facts, not a media report.

 

[bluewolf]

It may be splitting hairs, but I wasn't aware of a "Trade Agreement" with Vietnam.. I know the EU has one, but the deal between the UK and Vietnam is a "Strategic Partnership" that encompasses several areas, including Politics, trade, education etc...

So, you're both right.. Or, you're both wrong.. Or, everyone's wrong and golfers on forums just like arguing?

 

[Old Skier]

This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

So basicaly both sides are spouting rubbish . Couldn't agree more. Us dark siders openly admit to not knowing the definitive answer to the future while those that wish to be controlled from afar believe everything that the sheep come up with.

 

[Hobbit]

This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

So basicaly both sides are spouting rubbish . Couldn't agree more. Us dark siders openly admit to not knowing the definitive answer to the future while those that wish to be controlled from afar believe everything that the sheep come up with.

Our MD spoke about it in a briefing a couple of weeks back. He's a Remain but he openly says no one will know what Leave will be till after the Article 50 negotiations take place.

 

[SocketRocket]

This when we have a Leave campaign that seems unable to provide any evidence for pretty much anything that they assert will be bound to happen if UK leaves and that takes the truly unfounded rubbish spouted by BoJo as words of wisdom.

And as far as the UK has with Vietnam. I do have to ask how much this deal was based upon the UK being in the EU? Because that's the thing with all trade deals made with the UK over the last 40 years - they have been made on the knowledge that the UK was a member of the EU.

Come on just admit you got that one wrong. People who vote Leave do it for their own reasons, they don't need people like you or Ethan telling them they are misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around. If you want us to stay in the EU then thats your prerogative and you will get a vote like anyone else. A number of people have explained that their decision is not whether we will be a bit better or worse off, it's more than that to some of us but you either don't understand that or as I suspect don't want to.

I have stated my reasons and will continue to do so, I wont name call you for having different ones though as that would just be crass bad manners

 

[Foxholer]

...People who vote Leave do it for their own reasons, they don't need people like you or Ethan telling them they are misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around. If you want us to stay in the EU then thats your prerogative and you will get a vote like anyone else. A number of people have explained that their decision is not whether we will be a bit better or worse off, it's more than that to some of us but you either don't understand that or as I suspect don't want to.

I have stated my reasons and will continue to do so, I wont name call you for having different ones though as that would just be crass bad manners

And that's a quite valid point of view - if perhaps (or perhaps not) 'misguided, simple minded, xenophobic or what other muck is being thrown around'!

But it means there's actually no point in any further discussion! Take heart that your vote will (presumably) cancel SILH's!

SILH is certainly right about BoJo spouting rubbish though! But there's plenty of that from the Remain-ers too!