EU Referendum

[Pin-seeker]

Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....

:rofl::rofl::thup:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In other words you've shouted and screamed about scare tactics, and demanded hard facts and evidence but when you're asked to provide the same for Stay you come up with ONE sentence. WOW! That is a convincing argument. Seriously, that's what you're hanging your hat on?

I wonder what stability, security and access to the single market Norway has...? I wonder how Norway achieved the status of the best place to live in the WORLD when it isn't a member of the EU?

I don;t think I haven once complained about scare tactics being employed by Leave - though some proponents of that position have started throwing in concerns about membership of the EU being a threat to UK security. I have complained about Leave turning much of what Remain say into scare stories.

And as a supporter of Remain that one sentence, explained in more detail by another poster earlier if you want it fleshed out, and reiterated by others, does it for me. They are absolutely crucial factors pertaining to being in or out of the EU - and I don't see any of them being improved upon by us being outside of the EU. I also really don't have to pull up the the 'fiscal/monetary' facts you require about continuing membership - I am sure that they are all available if you wish to go find them through the Treasury Budget and Spending Reviews and the OBR.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Today's news helps the out argument as far as I'm concerned.

We have a meeting with all the EU leaders over the refugee problem which know doubt cost thousands and only proposals and not action has come about, but wait a minute, we will have another party costing thousands next week and have another chat.

Over a year ago the UN came up with a possible solution which only Cameron wanted to adopt and that was all refugees were to be sorted and documented in camps within the Middle East and they would be despatched to countries from there. Word would have soon got back to refugees trying other methods that no matter how much they paid these smuggling gangs, they would be transported back to the camps.

Oranisations like the EU are like committee meetings, the bigger the committee the longer it takes to get things done.

I'm guessing you are expecting that to being in the same way as the 200 small business signing a letter supporting Leave- stood up by Brexiteers as a counter to those big businesses who signed a letter supporting Remain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...preneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html

Except that when the 200 business were looked into 119 of them were not registered with Companies House, so likely to be 'sole traders' employing at best a handful of staff. They have valid views absolutely - but not exactly the significant counter that Brexit have portrayed it as.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...row-over-sole-trader-supporters-a6915851.html

And that's the thing. It's not that the views of the small businesses are not relevant - but that this was portrayed as something much more that it actually was - and so the public are given the view that there is a balance in business and split opinion between in and out. There is - but whose view really needs to be heeded a little more - whether you like it or not. Small business complains of 'red-tape' with being IN (without being given an understanding of the red-tape that will be associated with being OUT); much big business simply highlights the risks of being OUT.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm guessing you are expecting that to being in the same way as the 200 small business signing a letter supporting Leave- stood up by Brexiteers as a counter to those big businesses who signed a letter supporting Remain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...preneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html

Except that when the 200 business were looked into 119 of them were not registered with Companies House, so likely to be 'sole traders' employing at best a handful of staff. They have valid views absolutely - but not exactly the significant counter that Brexit have portrayed it as.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...row-over-sole-trader-supporters-a6915851.html

Dont underestimate soe traders. Yamazaki Machine Tools are the largest machine tool manufacturers in the world and are sole traders.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Dont underestimate soe traders. Yamazaki Machine Tools are the largest machine tool manufacturers in the world and are sole traders.

I am sure that if any sole traders of any great significance had signed the letter we'd have heard of it from Brexit by now in response to the analysis carried out by The Independent.

 

[Hobbit]

I don;t think I haven once complained about scare tactics being employed by Leave - though some proponents of that position have started throwing in concerns about membership of the EU being a threat to UK security. I have complained about Leave turning much of what Remain say into scare stories.

And as a supporter of Remain that one sentence, explained in more detail by another poster earlier if you want it fleshed out, and reiterated by others, does it for me. They are absolutely crucial factors pertaining to being in or out of the EU - and I don't see any of them being improved upon by us being outside of the EU. I also really don't have to pull up the the 'fiscal/monetary' facts you require about continuing membership - I am sure that they are all available if you wish to go find them through the Treasury Budget and Spending Reviews and the OBR.

Splitting hairs with the first para Hugh. I was deeply disappointed a few weeks ago to see DC acting like a street fighter and using scare tactics. He had a golden opportunity to take the high moral ground but he chose the same tactics as most of the other politicians, i.e. scare - they're nearly all at it. He was even advised by the 1922 committee to stop the blue on blue attacks.

I do try and find independent info, e.g. post 1013. And I source info on trading agreements that non-EU countries have with the EU to try and predict what we might have. There's a mountain of good info out there but people are too lazy to source it, preferring it to be served up by those with self interest or from the biased media.

I'm a leave, almost, but my final decision will be based on verifiable info, not from most politicians.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Imagine a simple grammar mistake bringing them all out

Will post it again

For the suggestion that we should go full in with EU does that mean joining the Euro

And which "countries" are thriving because of being in the EU

 

[Hacker Khan]

Imagine a simple grammar mistake bringing them all out

Will post it again

For the suggestion that we should go full in with EU does that mean joining the Euro

And which "countries" are thriving because of being in the EU

Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest. But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest. But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.

Do you mean investment from money that the country have put in themselves anyway ?

 

[Hobbit]

Looking at it on a country level is very difficult as you could argue for example that England can be split up into 2 countries in terms of economies and many other factors, London/South East and the rest. But there are many regions, including many deprived regions in this country, that have benefited from EU investment.

Benefited from investment from the EU...?Lets say that there is a project that costs £100million. The EU grant = a max of 50%, i.e. £50million. The UK then pays the other £50million.We've already paid the EU £110billion to be in the club, and in this example we're paying another £50million. As we already contribute £14billion more than we get back, and we then add in all the half payments on projects, you could say that the £100mill project is wholly our money + a % of the £14billion extra we've paid which just disappears.Picking a random figure out of the air, lets say that a conservative estimate of all the projects we have to pay half for is £500million...If you think we receive investment from the EU, you're are naïve. They actually tell us where and when we can spend our money if we want funding with what was our money to start with... I'm sure the BBC could do a good comedy sketch on that one, a Yes Minister type...

 

[FairwayDodger]

Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.

 

[Crazyface]

Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.

This from someone living where grants will be / are given to freely.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Do you mean investment from money that the country have put in themselves anyway ?

Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway. One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'

 

[Crazyface]

Also....who saw THAT coming from the Turks. (I did) LMAO !!!!!! No wonder their Prime Minister was smirking in all his pre meeting interviews.

Well done that man !!!!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Does anyone really think we should get more money back from the EU than we put in?

I get great benefit from my golf club membership but it costs money to get those benefits. Same thing on a much bigger scale with the EU.

I think we should get back exactly what we put in not be Net contributors where our money is used to help other countries when there is a lot of areas within the UK that could do with help first

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway. One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'

So you are OK with the EU taking precedence over the UK elected Government. We have our own method of moderating the Government, it's called the Ballot Box, the Opposition and the House of Lords, we don't really need another.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Yes but it is not as simple as saying that if we did not contribute to the EU then the money would have gone to these projects anyway. One of the benefits of the EU for me is that it is a moderating influence on the current government of the day, so it can look more at long term structural growth in all regions of the EU. Where as you could make an argument to say most governments have a short term and increasingly ideologically driven perspective and are as much concerned about being re-elected as they are about the long term growth of all regions.

Looking at it from purely a money in, money out basis to me reminds me of the phrase 'price of everything, value of nothing...'

Why is it not as simple as that ?

The money we put into the EU is controlled by people that we don't vote in - sorry but that doesn't seem right to me. Would much rather our money is managed by people the country vote in and use the money to look after ourselves first

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think we should get back exactly what we put in not be Net contributors where our money is used to help other countries when there is a lot of areas within the UK that could do with help first

So we (and presumably, therefore, all member states?) should get back exactly what they pay in? Is that really what you're saying? I think I'm maybe not following your logic because that is plainly absurd.

 

[MarkE]

Two grand sweeping statements of the sort so beloved of Leavers - but substantiated by what evidence?

Serious disagreement on some matters does not in itself make chaos - in fact it is perhaps more akin to democracy; and yes - we are a global power and so would be even more attractive to the RoW than we are today were it not for those dastardly EUropeans - who through their silly and petty rules prevent the UK from becoming that global force we know it should be. Aye that'll be right.

Evidence there for all to see (or those who care to see). The eu is a chaotic mess, disagreement amongst neighbours, barbed wire fences, borders being closed, countries going bankrupt having to be bailed out etc. etc.
Of course the eu bars the UK from free trade and cooperation with the wider world. Everything has to be ok'd through brussels, we can't trade freely.
Whether we become a global force is debatable, but it can't happen being stymied by the eu. It may just happen given the freedom to run ourselves, which the Stay lobby are dead against.

 

[jp5]

Why is it not as simple as that ?

The money we put into the EU is controlled by people that we don't vote in - sorry but that doesn't seem right to me. Would much rather our money is managed by people the country vote in and use the money to look after ourselves first

Of course we have a say - when we elect MEPs.