EU Referendum

[Hacker Khan]

Regarding UKIP on immigration. I have heard them saying they want a points based system that does not favour EU migrants verses the rest of the World. They have been saying that currently highly skilled people from places like India, China, Australia etc are disadvantaged in our immigration system when unskilled EU migrants have no restrictions.

The subjects you are mentioning here are not subject to a referendum so not comparing apples with apples. I put it to you, why are so many people saying they are undecided due to not having enough information for both sides of the matter.

I put it back to you, there is plenty of comment and opinion out there in the media from both sides. There is no conspiracy that will be blown wide open by by Mulder and Scully to hide it from the great British public.

It really is not that difficult to find it out if you want to. If you want hard and fast facts on what will happen after either way then you are not going to find it as no one knows. All people are doing is putting forwards an opinion based on their knowledge, experience, blinkered prejudices, xenophobia, self interest, what their mates said, how much that hate Michael Gove, etc etc. Most people will probably vote on their gut instinct anyway.

 

[SocketRocket]

I put it back to you, there is plenty of comment and opinion out there in the media from both sides. There is no conspiracy that will be blown wide open by by Mulder and Scully to hide it from the great British public.

It really is not that difficult to find it out if you want to. If you want hard and fast facts on what will happen after either way then you are not going to find it as no one knows. All people are doing is putting forwards an opinion based on their knowledge, experience, blinkered prejudices, xenophobia, self interest, what their mates said, how much that hate Michael Gove, etc etc. Most people will probably vote on their gut instinct anyway.

I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate. I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information. Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers. Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or 'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France' or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth. What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics being supported by no less that our own Prime Minister.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate. I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information. Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers. Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or 'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France' or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth. What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics that is being supported by no less that our Prime Minister.

That is democracy.

The man in the street should read these stories and those that make, as yet, unsubstantiated claims that we will be better off if we leave and will be able to trade freely with whoever we wish as well as apparently being able to stop the flow of asylum-seekers.

Having listened to all these conflicting claims he or she then decides

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Hogan have you come up with any reasons to stay in the EU yet ?

The knowledge, experience and relative certainty we have today of the stability, security and access to the single market provided by membership of the EU will do me fine.

 

[MarkE]

Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia. We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.

Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now? Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some.

Yes - we have read and heard a lot of this over the last few weeks - but mostly I'd say not from those on these boards - we are hearing it from those in the real world who are close to these matters. But whenever they make such observations they are accused of scaremongering! In many cases their jobs require them to understand what drives their 'business' and understand the risks to their business. They do not have Cameron wielding the sword of Damocles over them and threatening decapitation if they don't highlight risks - they are simply stating the risks as they see them.

Is this the collusion between Cameron and those with a vested interest in staying in, well of course it is. They are on the same side of the argument and so will work together to achieve their preferred outcome. That Leave shout 'foul' over such collusion is indicative of a campaign that is unable to state solid and achievable mitigations to the risks being pointed out. As a Risk Manager I would be being delinquent if I allowed owners of risks to just say 'it'll be OK' or 'it won't happen' - and bosses of major companies would be negligent and not doing their job if they did not highlight the risks of leaving to their shareholders.

Theirs isn't scaremongering - theirs is simply stating the risks and implicitly challenging the Leave campaign to come up wit the risk mitigations and contingency plans. But as they seem unable to do either Leave resort to shouts of 'project fear', 'scaremongering', 'collusion' and, fairly pathetically, stuff like 'dodgy dossier'.

 

[SocketRocket]

Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now? Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.

Well said.

How can we lead from within when we are one of twenty eight. And looking at the EU and international cooperation just look at Greece and what is happening with the migrant flow, the EU seem incapable of coming up with a solution, Australia found one but they were not manacled by big brother.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now? Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.

Two grand sweeping statements of the sort so beloved of Leavers - but substantiated by what evidence?

Serious disagreement on some matters does not in itself make chaos - in fact it is perhaps more akin to democracy; and yes - we are a global power and so would be even more attractive to the RoW than we are today were it not for those dastardly EUropeans - who through their silly and petty rules prevent the UK from becoming that global force we know it should be. Aye that'll be right.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes - we have read and heard a lot of this over the last few weeks - but mostly I'd say not from those on these boards - we are hearing it from those in the real world who are close to these matters. But whenever they make such observations they are accused of scaremongering! In many cases their jobs require them to understand what drives their 'business' and understand the risks to their business. They do not have Cameron wielding the sword of Damocles over them and threatening decapitation if they don't highlight risks - they are simply stating the risks as they see them.

Is this the collusion between Cameron and those with a vested interest in staying in, well of course it is. They are on the same side of the argument and so will work together to achieve their preferred outcome. That Leave shout 'foul' over such collusion is indicative of a campaign that is unable to state solid and achievable mitigations to the risks being pointed out. As a Risk Manager I would be being delinquent if I allowed owners of risks to just say 'it'll be OK' or 'it won't happen' - and bosses of major companies would be negligent and not doing their job if they did not highlight the risks of leaving to their shareholders.

Theirs isn't scaremongering - theirs is simply stating the risks and implicitly challenging the Leave campaign to come up wit the risk mitigations and contingency plans. But as they seem unable to do either Leave resort to shouts of 'project fear', 'scaremongering', 'collusion' and, fairly pathetically, stuff like 'dodgy dossier'.

You have taken my post out of context. It was a reply to an earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the Leave group so I listed some from the Stay. Please don't do that!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You have taken my post out of context. It was a reply to an earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the Leave group so I listed some from the Stay. Please don't do that!

Sorry - I missed the earlier post suggesting that the only scare stories were from the Leave campaign - though I may have missed it as I'm surprised anyone would actually suggest that, as it is most certainly not the case.

My point remains about the way Leave convert statements of risk made by Remain into 'scaremongering' as their way of avoiding addressing the risk with a mitigation.

 

[Hobbit]

The knowledge, experience and relative certainty we have today of the stability, security and access to the single market provided by membership of the EU will do me fine.

In other words you've shouted and screamed about scare tactics, and demanded hard facts and evidence but when you're asked to provide the same for Stay you come up with ONE sentence. WOW! That is a convincing argument. Seriously, that's what you're hanging your hat on?

I wonder what stability, security and access to the single market Norway has...? I wonder how Norway achieved the status of the best place to live in the WORLD when it isn't a member of the EU?

 

[Hacker Khan]

I still say the Government should have spent more time with these negotiations and presented more information to the electorate. I disagree that it's easy to find out the information if you look for it, this may be the case for someone like you who is intelligent and understands where to look and how to decipher statistical information. Many, many people are not able to do this and are confused by the conflicting information they see on the television or read in the newspapers. Take for example the comments/threats made such as 'We will lose lots of jobs' or 'We will lose a large amount of trade if we leave' or 'Leaving is a jump into the dark' or 'If we leave there will be Jungle type camps in Dover' or 'If we leave our financial services will all go to Germany and France' or that 'if we leave we will be less safe' or 'being in the EU has stopped us all killing each other for the last 70 years' and so on and so forth. What does the man in the street take from that lot, is it not scare tactics being supported by no less that our own Prime Minister.

The government is presenting their opinion to the electorate. I get that you do not agree with it and think all they are doing is peddling scare stories. But they have an opinion, a vested interest in the outcome so of course they will make their case on the biggest political decision in a long time.

If you are looking for someone to blame for not getting balanced facts then blame the media, The Mail, The Guardian. It is their job to cut through all the spin and scaremongering and present information to the population so that they can understand it, not the government's role to be politically neutral.

And just think how much worse we will be if the tories do murdochs bidding for him and neuter the BBC, arguably the most neutral media outlet in this country. Just think how difficult it will be then to get a balanced view...

 

[FairwayDodger]

Totally disagree. Withdrawing from the chaotic mess that's the eu, the biggest bar we have to to international cooperation and trade. We should take the chance to leave now the door is ajar and embrace the world, not just a few disfunctional eu states. I advocate closer relations with the wider world, hardly xenophobic. As for leading from within, it has'nt happened for the last 40 years or so, so why would it happen now? Maybe you should stop burying your head in the sand and stop falling for Camerons hyperbole.

My view on the EU is despite Cameron not because of him. Of course we haven't been leading in the EU, we have always been reluctant members. My point is that we should embrace it wholeheartedly in a manner we haven't so far. Obviously, however that can never happen under a Tory party that continues to be utterly divided on the issue.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - how many clubs are thriving because of being in the EU ?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - how many clubs are thriving because of being in the EU ?

Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....

 

[Fish]

Well the Europa cup gives minor teams like Liverpool an opportunity to claim they are still big teams on the European stage.


Oh sorry, wrong thread....

😂😂😂

👍

 

[Old Skier]

My view on the EU is despite Cameron not because of him. Of course we haven't been leading in the EU, we have always been reluctant members. My point is that we should embrace it wholeheartedly in a manner we haven't so far. Obviously, however that can never happen under a Tory party that continues to be utterly divided on the issue.

How can you blame Cameron and the Tory Party, this has been the problem from the get go and continued no matter which government was in control. Labour have a leader who has argued for out all of his political career as have a number of Labour members, funny how they are all hiding behind the sofa now.

 

[Old Skier]

Does that include joining the Euro ?

Genuine question - how many clubs are thriving because of being in the EU ?

All of those with massive squads holding many EU players, if we weren't in we could have a system where only a set amount of foreign players can be in any particular club.

 

[Old Skier]

Today's news helps the out argument as far as I'm concerned.

We have a meeting with all the EU leaders over the refugee problem which know doubt cost thousands and only proposals and not action has come about, but wait a minute, we will have another party costing thousands next week and have another chat.

Over a year ago the UN came up with a possible solution which only Cameron wanted to adopt and that was all refugees were to be sorted and documented in camps within the Middle East and they would be despatched to countries from there. Word would have soon got back to refugees trying other methods that no matter how much they paid these smuggling gangs, they would be transported back to the camps.

Oranisations like the EU are like committee meetings, the bigger the committee the longer it takes to get things done.

 

[FairwayDodger]

How can you blame Cameron and the Tory Party, this has been the problem from the get go and continued no matter which government was in control. Labour have a leader who has argued for out all of his political career as have a number of Labour members, funny how they are all hiding behind the sofa now.

Not blaming anyone. However, the Tories have been tearing themselves apart on this issue for as long as I can remember, well before Cameron came on the scene, so it's unthinkable that they will ever come round. My point wasn't about Labour, who obviously aren't there either, but (if you're asking) I do think there's more possibility they could eventually fully embrace Europe.