EU Referendum

[SocketRocket]

Yes you are. He's the frikkin PM, it is his job to decide what he thinks the UK should do in big matters that effect the country, that's the whole point of him. Do you really think he will be taken seriously if he flip flops between 2 differing opinions in the name of neutrality. He isn't neutral, the governments official position is not neutral and much as I love a wooly liberal, he'd be a global joke if the PM of a country, the person that effectively runs the country, could not express his opinion on one of the major issues of his lifetime in Parliament. Sorry if his position does not match yours, I am sure you'd be saying the same if he came out in favour of leaving

If you want these mythical facts that everyone is hiding the read the Guardian then The Daily Mail. And they will be somewhere in the middle.

They didn't have to call for a referendum. When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide. How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark! No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Obsessed ? No ?

It's quite clear from his posts that he is in the IN camp - but he constantly seems to be "attacking" the OUT camp accusing of scaremongering etc etc etc

I posted that I haven't seen many valid reasons to stay in the EU but have IMO seen valid reasons for leaving - Hogan responded ( surely not as I'm the obsessed ) by dismissing what I see as valid reasons for leaving - so in fact backed up my point that still not seeing valid reasons to stay - so I asked him to provide them - failed to do so once again focusing of dismissing of people's valid reasons for leaving and continuing to focus on dismissing the campaign to leave.

If SILH is in favour of remaining then he is advocating the status quo albeit with some changes, in which case there is no need for him to offer anything else to support that point.

Rather it is for those advocating an exit to explain how and why we will all benefit.

Throughout the debate the only accusations of scaremongering thatI have seen have emanated from the Leave camp and been directed at those in favour of remaining. Certainly not seen any such accusations from SILH.

 

[Hobbit]

They didn't have to call for a referendum. When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide. How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark! No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.

And there's obviously a reason they don't want to give that information. Because it will weaken the Stay option, which suggests there are good reasons to leave...

 

[FairwayDodger]

Seen that before - believe there isn't anything in there that we can't achieve as a nation on our own as well a good deal of it focusing on what we can do in other countries.

But are they reasons good enough to stay ?

We aren't going to suddenly dismiss human rights and equality because we leave the EU IMO

Wow - dismissed it all in 2 mins? Your mind is clearly made up. And no, there is no way we could achieve all that on our own - the only way to implement many of these benefits is by working together with other European countries.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Wow - dismissed it all in 2 mins? Your mind is clearly made up. And no, there is no way we could achieve all that on our own - the only way to implement many of these benefits is by working together with other European countries.

I have read it before

My mind is made up until I see something or hear strong reasons to change my mind and so far I haven't - seen more reasons to leave and the possible/probable benefits of leaving.

Beleive we as a nation should look after our nation first and foremost

 

[SocketRocket]

If SILH is in favour of remaining then he is advocating the status quo albeit with some changes, in which case there is no need for him to offer anything else to support that point.

Rather it is for those advocating an exit to explain how and why we will all benefit.

Throughout the debate the only accusations of scaremongering thatI have seen have emanated from the Leave camp and been directed at those in favour of remaining. Certainly not seen any such accusations from SILH.

There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some.

 

[FairwayDodger]

I have read it before

My mind is made up until I see something or hear strong reasons to change my mind and so far I haven't - seen more reasons to leave and the possible/probable benefits of leaving.

Beleive we as a nation should look after our nation first and foremost

You're entitled to your opinion but please stop saying you haven't seen any reasons to stay - there's a whole website full of them. If you decide they're not "good enough" then fine but you have seen them (assuming you actually read much on the site).

Bottom line is that everything on that page goes out the window if we leave the EU. Some might be recreated over time but many will not.

I'll turn it round and say I haven't seen any good reasons to leave, what with not being xenophobic....

 

[Deleted member 18588]

There have been a number of reasons suggesting we would be better off 'Out' just as there have been a number saying we would be better of 'In'.

I have read a number of posts suggesting that if we leave we would lose trade, the currency would tumble, we would lose international respect and sway, jobs would go, peace in Europe would end, we would not have control of our borders to name just some.

Absolutely, and those suggestions are just someone's opinions.

It is the Leave campaigners who have then dismissed those opinions as scaremongering.

Sadly the level of the debate on both sides has, so far, been pretty poor.

We now have Yvette Cooper as well as J Corbyn trying to suggest that the argument is purely within the Conservative Party as if all on the Labour benches are in harmonious agreement.

With the electorate faced with such a momentous decision this is hardly an appropriate time for party poltics.

 

[Hacker Khan]

They didn't have to call for a referendum. When a government does they are passing the decision making to the electorate as they believe it is something too important for Government to decide. How can you ask the electorate to decide on something without putting all the options before them rather than just saying one decision will be a jump into the dark! No wonder there are so many people saying they are undecided as they are not being given enough information.

Yes, I look forwards to the conservative party extolling the virtues of local authorities in the next election, just to put balanced facts across. Or UKIP waxing lyrical about the positive impact immigrants have had on the cultural and social tapestry of British life. And can't wait to hear Corbyn arguing in favour of privatizating the air we breath. All in the interests of giving enough information of course.

And I think the government have said a bit more than 'it's a jump into the dark'. It's a bit like summing up the leave campaign with 'They don't trust Brussels'. Both kind of sum up the arguments in a short pithy way, but both hide a multitude of more complex and nuanced points underneath. But if all you ever hear is 'jump in the dark' then carry on, selective hearing is a great thing.

And as for not getting enough comment and opinion (as as we have already established, no one knows for sure what will happen) then read a paper. Or tune into Radio 5 or 4. Or watch the news. Or read all this thread. It's not difficult.

 

[MarkE]

I'll turn it round and say I haven't seen any good reasons to leave, what with not being xenophobic....

Wondered how long before someone used that old chestnut. Just like discussions on immigration, call someone a racist to kill the debate. Being proud and patriotic with real concerns about being in the eu, does not make anyone xenophobic.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Absolutely, and those suggestions are just someone's opinions.

It is the Leave campaigners who have then dismissed those opinions as scaremongering.

Sadly the level of the debate on both sides has, so far, been pretty poor.

We now have Yvette Cooper as well as J Corbyn trying to suggest that the argument is purely within the Conservative Party as if all on the Labour benches are in harmonious agreement.

With the electorate faced with such a momentous decision this is hardly an appropriate time for party poltics.

Is that not scaremongering then by saying if we leave everything could all go wrong ?

Is it not scaremongering to try and scare people into changing their votes by focusing on the negatives ?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Wondered how long before someone used that old chestnut. Just like discussions on race, call someone a racist to kill the debate. Being proud and patriotic with real concerns about being in the eu, does not make anyone a xenophobic.

Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia. We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.

 

[ColchesterFC]

This should keep you reading for a while....

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/whats-in-it-for-me

Just had a brief look through that and there are some things on there that I would say are benefits of staying in the EU but others (from the flow chart type thing with the 4 colours) that I just don't understand why they would change. Things such as clean beaches and bathing water, recycling, cheaper telecoms, food labelling, fair airline ticket pricing and importing cars. I can't see why those things would have to change if we left the EU. It's not like we're suddenly going to be dumping raw sewage onto our blue flag beaches just because we leave. Perhaps someone could explain as there must be more to it but I'm just not seeing it.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Hiding your head and the sand and pretending otherwise doesn't change it, I'm afraid. Withdrawing from the EU means withdrawing from the best structure we have for international cooperation, that's just about the definition of xenophobia. We shouldn't be leaving, we should be embracing it fully and leading from within instead of always being dragged behind and complaining like a petulant teenager.

The dictionary definition of xenophobia is.......

"an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

Withdrawing from a structure for international cooperation isn't xenophobic although the reasons behind some of those wanting to leave might be considered as such.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Just had a brief look through that and there are some things on there that to I would say are benefits of staying in the EU but others (from the flow chart type thing with the 4 colours) that I just don't understand why they would change. Things such as clean beaches and bathing water, recycling, cheaper telecoms, food labelling, fair airline ticket pricing and importing cars. I can't see why those things would have to change if we left the EU. It's not like we're suddenly going to be dumping raw sewage onto our blue flag beaches just because we leave. Perhaps someone could explain as there must be more to it but I'm just not seeing it.

Agree that many of those we could do, although we haven't - maybe because it was already there via the EU but maybe not. Others, like cheaper telecoms, seem obviously to require a degree of cross-border cooperation that would be much more fraught outside the EU.

I had a flight cancelled at short notice. Using EU legislation I was able to get compensation which went a long way towards paying for the dearer flight I had to buy the day before my holiday. Now maybe, in the fullness of time, our government would get round to passing similar legislation, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Agree that many of those we could do, although we haven't - maybe because it was already there via the EU but maybe not. Others, like cheaper telecoms, seem obviously to require a degree of cross-border cooperation that would be much more fraught outside the EU.

Aren't roaming charges in Europe about to be banned in the EU? I wonder what would happen with UK mobiles abroad if we left.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Aren't roaming charges in Europe about to be banned in the EU? I wonder what would happen with UK mobiles abroad if we left.

Exactly my point.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Is that not scaremongering then by saying if we leave everything could all go wrong ?

Is it not scaremongering to try and scare people into changing their votes by focusing on the negatives ?

Only if you aren't mature enough to weigh up different sides of an argument before reaching a decision, and consider other people's opinions as frightening rather than just different.

 

[FairwayDodger]

The dictionary definition of xenophobia is.......

"an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange."

Withdrawing from a structure for international cooperation isn't xenophobic although the reasons behind some of those wanting to leave might be considered as such.

Well..... if you want to get all literal about it!

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes, I look forwards to the conservative party extolling the virtues of local authorities in the next election, just to put balanced facts across. Or UKIP waxing lyrical about the positive impact immigrants have had on the cultural and social tapestry of British life. And can't wait to hear Corbyn arguing in favour of privatizating the air we breath. All in the interests of giving enough information of course.

And I think the government have said a bit more than 'it's a jump into the dark'. It's a bit like summing up the leave campaign with 'They don't trust Brussels'. Both kind of sum up the arguments in a short pithy way, but both hide a multitude of more complex and nuanced points underneath. But if all you ever hear is 'jump in the dark' then carry on, selective hearing is a great thing.

And as for not getting enough comment and opinion (as as we have already established, no one knows for sure what will happen) then read a paper. Or tune into Radio 5 or 4. Or watch the news. Or read all this thread. It's not difficult.

Regarding UKIP on immigration. I have heard them saying they want a points based system that does not favour EU migrants verses the rest of the World. They have been saying that currently highly skilled people from places like India, China, Australia etc are disadvantaged in our immigration system when unskilled EU migrants have no restrictions.

The subjects you are mentioning here are not subject to a referendum so not comparing apples with apples. I put it to you, why are so many people saying they are undecided due to not having enough information for both sides of the matter.