EU Referendum

[SocketRocket]

I am guessing that a lot depends on where you main market/customer base is. If it is predominantly UK based then I imagine there will be more chance of them wanting to get out as I imagine they get a lot of burdens without that many benefits. Where as if they export a lot to Europe and even globally then I imagine they will be more inclined to want to stay in. And I expect neither are right or wrong.

In fact I'd welcome a good economic argument/discussion by people wanting to leave as it will make a refreshing change to the focus on the immigration topic which I still say, in the grand scheme of things, is a minor consideration. Let's debate the economics of it all.

From my perspective both me and my wife work for global companies and also I see how a lot of our investments are influenced by European and global economies. So that's why I'd rather stay in, economically it makes more sense to me for myself, my family, my company and the UK economy. But more than happy to listen to any economic arguments otherwise.

JCB seem to be comfortable with us leaving: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32775396

 

[Deleted member 15344]

No I'd don't think they are wrong. it is their opinion and they know what they see as being best for themselves and their business. I just don't go telling them to prove they would be better out because I know that they actually can't - and they can't because they do not know the commercial environment they will be operating in - they can only guess.

That sums it up

 

[Old Skier]

No I'd don't think they are wrong. it is their opinion and they know what they see as being best for themselves and their business. I just don't go telling them to prove they would be better out because I know that they actually can't - and they can't because they do not know the commercial environment they will be operating in - they can only guess.

Sounds like you only believe business people who come up with their reasons for staying and guessing what the implications may be.

Neither side know for a fact what might or might not happen so why do you feel your business buddies are better informed.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

It certainly is Deja Vu - lots of hot air and guesswork - same as another recent referendum

Im still waiting though for your "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in that you mentioned a couple days back

But I'll give one reason leaving - the amount of money we put into the EU massively outweighs the benefits we see from the EU

We are subjected to the community rules on benefits we must give to someone arriving from an EU country.

If another country suffers bankruptcy ala Greece then we have to give more money to bail them out - sorry but why should be punished because another country couldn't sort their own finances.


Just a few reasons I have heard from people who want the UK to leave

Not heard many reasons to stay

Thank you for your reasons.

How do you quantify the amount of money that we put in to the amount of money we get out?
How much is massive?
Please quote reliable sources in your response.

For the record I gave you my reasons to stay in, twice really, as you 'missed' them the first time and seem to have missed them the second time around as well.

 

[SocketRocket]

I can see the benefits of the terms we originally joined the Common Market with, a European free trade agreement makes perfect sense. Everything else to me is unnecessary for the UK and has no real benefit other than wasting money on an organisation that makes up policies that we don't need and can manage ourselves. The Euro is a typical example of how the EU experiment is a failure, the Migrant crisis is another example of how incompetent the EU is.

I have confidence in our Country to make a better job of it and thats my main reason to support an 'Out' vote

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Thank you for your reasons.

How do you quantify the amount of money that we put in to the amount of money we get out?
How much is massive?
Please quote reliable sources in your response.

For the record I gave you my reasons to stay in, twice really, as you 'missed' them the first time and seem to have missed them the second time around as well.

You posted some stuff but none of the "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in with them being guesswork.

This is from 2012

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in

 

[FairwayDodger]

Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in

Taking that at face value, is it necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? Why shouldn't the stronger states help out the weaker ones?

 

[SocketRocket]

You posted some stuff but none of the "glaringly obvious" reasons to stay in with them being guesswork.

This is from 2012

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/nov/22/eu-budget-spending-contributions-european-union

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/11221427/EU-budget-what-you-need-to-know.html

Both reports inform that the stronger states get less out of the EU budget than they put in

Thats correct. Every country in the EU except a few expect to pay in a Euro and get 1.1 back.

 

[MegaSteve]

But that is kind of saying just because the economic working conditions in this country are not 'perfect' then that is a reason to get out. No one is condoning paying below the minimum wage or gangs exploiting workers, but I am struggling to see how that would have changed if we were out of the EU? And there are not perfect economic working conditions anywhere in the world, in fact I'd argue the Germans are as close as you get nowadays, and you can't get more EU than them.

And I am pretty sure that hundreds of posts ago a businessman listed the benefits he and also UK workers had gained from being in the EU?

I've no doubt those working for multi-nationals have seen 'benefit' from membership... But I doubt the average worker on the average industrial estate or mega warehouse has seen anything of the much touted benefits [to workers] of membership... And, certainly this will be the case for those in the vans of gangmasters... All of these will have contributed, in some small, way to the membership fees so are they selfish to be expecting to at least to see some benefit on the horizon at the very least...

Being in was portrayed as being a great opportunity for British workers...
Whereas, for many, this has proven to be anything but the case...

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Taking that at face value, is it necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things? Why shouldn't the stronger states help out the weaker ones?

If that stronger state doesn't have issues of its own to sort out. I would much prefer money go to sort out our own NHS for example as opposed to help out another counties NHS - selfish maybe but I think we need to look after our own house first and then when that's in good order help out others.

Especially when other countries don't seem to be interested in helping themselves out - Greece is a perfect example

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Sounds like you only believe business people who come up with their reasons for staying and guessing what the implications may be.

Neither side know for a fact what might or might not happen so why do you feel your business buddies are better informed.

Not really so. The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU. I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so. Is that down to being in the EU? I don't know. But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be. And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Not really so. The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU. I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so. Is that down to being in the EU? I don't know. But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be. And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.

Did the boss of Easyjet give the reasons why being in the EU gives cheaper flights.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Did the boss of Easyjet give the reasons why being in the EU gives cheaper flights.

She did and I believe @HK outlined them in a previous post

Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area.

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA. And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

She did and I believe @HK outlined them in a previous post

Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area.

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA. And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?

HK said that she said it was easier to run an airline being in the EU but not actually "why"

The actual factual reasons and the cost reasons as opposed to generic statements that don't actually give the actual reason.

 

[Old Skier]

Not really so. The boss of easyJet tells me that cheap flights and a wide variety of destinations have been made possible by us being in the EU. I know flights are cheap - I know I can go just about anywhere - and it was never so. Is that down to being in the EU? I don't know. But it seems perfectly sensible that it might well be. And I doubt flights will be cheaper and offered to more destinations if we come out.

An airline company based in Iceland offer very cheap flights from UK to parts of the USA, they are not part of the EU, Emerites offer cheap flights all over the world as do many other non EU airlines so I cannot see why EasyJet feel that we need to be a member to obtain cheap flights.

The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU, seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse.

 

[MegaSteve]

Also on Immigration and Norway - from Norway's EEA agreement

The Agreement also assures EEA citizens the opportunity to live, work, and study in all 30 EEA states. The large number of labour immigrants that have arrived in Norway from other EEA countries in recent years illustrates the importance and mutual benefit of a common labour market within the European Economic Area.

http://www.eu-norway.org/news1/Norw...ys-other-agreements-with-the-EU/#.VsITTPmLTcs

This suggests that in being part of the wider EEA, Norway has to be open to immigration from the rest of the EEA. And for EEA citizens to be able to benefit from a common labour market suggests Norway has to abide the employment legislation laid down by the EU countries.

But the UK would be different from Norway? Or the same?

Not quite sure what this has got to do with anything...

But the bottom line remains...

Politicians tell lies...
Bosses of big business tell lies...

And we, irrespective of the outcome of the vote, are going nowhere...
The 'establishment' simply wouldn't allow it...

 

[Hacker Khan]

HK said that she said it was easier to run an airline being in the EU but not actually "why"

The actual factual reasons and the cost reasons as opposed to generic statements that don't actually give the actual reason.

Because for her being in the EU makes the process of doing business, in the case of Easyjet, flying between different destination mostly in Europe, easier. And if something is easier to do then logically it will become cheaper and more efficient, which leads to cost savings etc etc. For example if the process of opening another route to an airport in Europe is easier and quicker because we are in the EU then it logically follows it will cost less to do so. All businesses are looking to reduce the costs of doing business, which is what she thinks the EU provides for her company.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Because for her being in the EU makes the process of doing business, in the case of Easyjet, flying between different destination mostly in Europe, easier. And if something is easier to do then logically it will become cheaper and more efficient, which leads to cost savings etc etc. For example if the process of opening another route to an airport in Europe is easier and quicker because we are in the EU then it logically follows it will cost less to do so. All businesses are looking to reduce the costs of doing business, which is what she thinks the EU provides for her company.

But it's not specifics though HK

Why is it easier and quicker because we are in the EU - is it a paper work trail ? Is it because of extra fees ? Is it cheaper because of some airport fees are different ?

Has there been troubles for Easy Jet flying out of countries not in the EU - doesn't seem to have any substance behind it

At least the boss of Ford said it pretty clearly - he wasn't sure what the impact would be but if negative could result in job losses

It all seems very familiar to a very recent referendum - lots of generic sound bites but when it gets down to the details they are very much lacking

 

[Foxholer]

....
The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU, seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse.

The key word is 'could' and anything 'could' happen!

If a Brexit really does prompt the collapse of the EU, then it's in a pretty parlous state anyway! Though as the only state to have left it through real choice, I can see how other states might also question its relevance/value. More likely, imo, it would lead to a revised organisation, more in line with what the UK renegotiation was actually wanting!

 

[Hacker Khan]

An airline company based in Iceland offer very cheap flights from UK to parts of the USA, they are not part of the EU, Emerites offer cheap flights all over the world as do many other non EU airlines so I cannot see why EasyJet feel that we need to be a member to obtain cheap flights.

The EU Commisioner stated today that the UKs withdrawal could lead to the collapse of the EU, seems strange that one country leaves and the whole of the EU might collapse.

But there were also great fears about the collapse of the Euro if Greece left, or Portugal, or Ireland. Which goes to show just how connected the European economies, including ours, are.

And with regards to the routes then no one is saying as soon as you come out of Europe then we won't be able to fly anywhere. The lady from Easyjet just stated it would become more expensive and the choice of routes would reduce. Emirates is not a good example as that is basically a state funded airline from massive oil profits and it is as much about buying credibility and prominence as the main tourist destination in that region as it is running an economically successful business. Why do you think they go around buying major football teams and naming rights to grounds in the UK, it isn't to turn a direct profit from that venture.