EU Referendum

[harpo_72]

So if your paying to access the EU and your not receiving the regeneration hand outs, are you in a better position?
If part of trading in the EU means free movement of people, is that acceptable too?
All I can see is the leavers have destabilised their own economies and caused problems for Euro.
I don't mind if we cut benefits, no problem with that at all. I suspect we could maintain the income tax rates as is if we stop paying benefits and up the cost of social housing to meet any shortfalls.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

This doesn't look or sound good

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html#

:mmm:

 

[bluewolf]

I don't mind if we cut benefits, no problem with that at all. I suspect we could maintain the income tax rates as is if we stop paying benefits and up the cost of social housing to meet any shortfalls.

Sorry, are you actually advocating the abolishment of the Welfare State?

 

[harpo_72]

Sorry, are you actually advocating the abolishment of the Welfare State?

To a degree yes, take it a way as an option for some people.

 

[bluewolf]

To a degree yes, take it a way as an option for some people.

Which people? And who would decide who these people are?

I do appreciate that there is always going to be a small percentage of people who will take advantage of a helping hand, but how do you identify these people without spending more than your saving?

 

[harpo_72]

Which people? And who would decide who these people are?

I do appreciate that there is always going to be a small percentage of people who will take advantage of a helping hand, but how do you identify these people without spending more than your saving?

Look at NI contributions and set the filter no contributions no benefits unless there is a proper reason. Remember the system is dependant on contributions and thus requires input. Limit the size or pay outs to families - always strange when you see a single mum with 5+ kids .. How does that become acceptable?
All of the above may sound harsh but we really need to look at where we are bleeding money. So reduce MP pay and put them on the clock plus no expenses (we all have to travel to work) ... The NHS and education should be ring fenced

 

[SocketRocket]

I think there are a larger number of these types than many believe. Since I have had a little more time on my hands I notice people that are obviously unemployable as well as those that just don't want to work. I'm not sure how the statistics are worked out but I imagine many are not classed as unemployed but disabled. Before anyone goes off on me knocking the disabled I must say thats not the case, I have respect and very much time for genuinely disabled people but I think there are a very large number swinging the lead. There is a junior school next to my house and I am horrified at many of the parents that I see outside the gates, it is obvious that many dont work and probably never have.

As has been mentioned it's not easy to do something about it unless we returned to the methods of the 50s/60s where the ministry of works main objective was to asses unemployed and find them a job suitable to their ability, if they refused it they had their benefits stopped. We have created this horrible situation whereby unemployment and benefits have become a lifestyle choice for so many.

Maybe a start would be to reduce family allowance to two children for new claimants, also there could be a reduction in tax credits, I know Osborne failed with this recently but they are an excuse for employers to pay low wages. OK, people here know I am not a fan of high immigration, especially with low skilled people. If we were tougher with the feckless and insisted they worked or were penalised then maybe we could knock a big hole in the welfare budget and lower demand for low skilled immigrants. Work is the best way out of poverty and to engender self pride.

OK, this is a little off the subject in debate but as an independent country we need to raise standards and reduce waste.

Putts on flameproof suit, stands braced and waits for the hot blasts.

 

[SocketRocket]

This doesn't look or sound good

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html#

:mmm:

When we withdrew from the ERM sterling devalued and created the start of a recovery. Trade improved and the trade defect reduced.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

When we withdrew from the ERM sterling devalued and created the start of a recovery. Trade improved and the trade defect reduced.

That doesn't really answer the question of the pounds performance against the dollar Right now which is affecting the man on the street and looks like is could get worse.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Look at NI contributions and set the filter no contributions no benefits unless there is a proper reason. Remember the system is dependant on contributions and thus requires input. Limit the size or pay outs to families - always strange when you see a single mum with 5+ kids .. How does that become acceptable?
All of the above may sound harsh but we really need to look at where we are bleeding money. So reduce MP pay and put them on the clock plus no expenses (we all have to travel to work) ... The NHS and education should be ring fenced

On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.

 

[Papas1982]

I think there are a larger number of these types than many believe. Since I have had a little more time on my hands I notice people that are obviously unemployable as well as those that just don't want to work. I'm not sure how the statistics are worked out but I imagine many are not classed as unemployed but disabled. Before anyone goes off on me knocking the disabled I must say thats not the case, I have respect and very much time for genuinely disabled people but I think there are a very large number swinging the lead. There is a junior school next to my house and I am horrified at many of the parents that I see outside the gates, it is obvious that many dont work and probably never have.

As has been mentioned it's not easy to do something about it unless we returned to the methods of the 50s/60s where the ministry of works main objective was to asses unemployed and find them a job suitable to their ability, if they refused it they had their benefits stopped. We have created this horrible situation whereby unemployment and benefits have become a lifestyle choice for so many.

Maybe a start would be to reduce family allowance to two children for new claimants, also there could be a reduction in tax credits, I know Osborne failed with this recently but they are an excuse for employers to pay low wages. OK, people here know I am not a fan of high immigration, especially with low skilled people. If we were tougher with the feckless and insisted they worked or were penalised then maybe we could knock a big hole in the welfare budget and lower demand for low skilled immigrants. Work is the best way out of poverty and to engender self pride.

OK, this is a little off the subject in debate but as an independent country we need to raise standards and reduce waste.

Putts on flameproof suit, stands braced and waits for the hot blasts.

Growing up in an estate. The benefit culture is one that infuriates me!
Everytime I hear "I'd only be X better off" I want to slap them in the face.
How about you set an example to your children. Or have some respect for yourself? Or contribute to the society you rely on!

I also have a daughter with cerebral palsy and I'll be damned if she doesn't work! She'll (unless system changes) always have financial help for extra costs of living. But even if it's a call centre. She'll be working of have my boot up her backside!

 

[harpo_72]

On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.

Quite happy to chase all of the debtors totally disagree with tax evasion from large corporations who then offer to pay a percentage back... Answer should be no, you lose your licence or you pay the full amount.

 

[SocketRocket]

That doesn't really answer the question of the pounds performance against the dollar Right now which is affecting the man on the street and looks like is could get worse.

It was exactly the same then, it devalued. As a man in the street exactly how have you been affected? I think it has been made clear that we can expect some initial cost in Brexit and you will probably howl at anything and everything, but as you are completely negative and almost seem to want the country to nosedive anything I say to you will be kicked into the long grass. I refer you again to your post just after the referendum where you suggested we all need to make the best of the situation, you seem to have conveniently brushed that aside.

 

[SocketRocket]

On the last official figures it was reckoned Benefit Fraud cost 1.6 Billion and the DWP has 3,600 people working on Benefit Fraud, the same period had 34 Billion owed in unpaid taxes and HMRC has 700 staff working in the 2 Units that deal with the highest tax payers, maybe if the Government focussed on the rich rather than the poor who are fiddling we could ring fence the NHS or Schools, not in anyway advocating Benefit Fraud, all Fraudsters should be chased.

But the problem is not just benefit fraud, thats a small part of it. We have a system where it is quite legitimate to take other peoples hard earned money to support your lazy feckless lifestyle, that costs a darn site more than 1.6 Billion and people do it legitimately.

I think most people agree that everyone should pay their tax but two wrongs don't make a right. Some people make a lot of money illegally selling drugs but it would be wrong to suggest that while thats happening it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

But the problem is not just benefit fraud, thats a small part of it. We have a system where it is quite legitimate to take other peoples hard earned money to support your lazy feckless lifestyle, that costs a darn site more than 1.6 Billion and people do it legitimately.

I think most people agree that everyone should pay their tax but two wrongs don't make a right. Some people make a lot of money illegally selling drugs but it would be wrong to suggest that while thats happening it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer.

So you're suggesting we take money off people who receive it legitimately? because all these people are lazy and feckless?

Were did I say it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer, it's easy to pick on the people on benefits and tar them all with the same brush, I never see anyone suggesting the Government should put more effort into finding the people who are not claiming the 1.2 Billion legitimately owed in benefits.

My point is, why aren't we putting the same resources and effort into chasing the tax dodgers, 700 staff against 3600 for a lot more money.

 

[SocketRocket]

So you're suggesting we take money off people who receive it legitimately? because all these people are lazy and feckless?

Were did I say it's ok to be lazy and rip off the tax payer, it's easy to pick on the people on benefits and tar them all with the same brush, I never see anyone suggesting the Government should put more effort into finding the people who are not claiming the 1.2 Billion legitimately owed in benefits.

My point is, why aren't we putting the same resources and effort into chasing the tax dodgers, 700 staff against 3600 for a lot more money.

I dont disagree over tax dodgers but as I have said two wrongs don't make a right. What I am saying is we spend too much on welfare and have created a culture whereby too many people think they have an entitlement to tax payers money. Rather than tar them ALL with the same brush I am saying if you can work then work or get nothing. Do you disagree with that? I would say that anyone suggesting that there are not a great number of people claiming benefits rather than work either dont get out and about much or are very naive.

I also think (as a pensioner) that there are too many well off pensioners having benefits that the country cant afford and this needs to be addressed.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It was exactly the same then, it devalued. As a man in the street exactly how have you been affected? I think it has been made clear that we can expect some initial cost in Brexit and you will probably howl at anything and everything, but as you are completely negative and almost seem to want the country to nosedive anything I say to you will be kicked into the long grass. I refer you again to your post just after the referendum where you suggested we all need to make the best of the situation, you seem to have conveniently brushed that aside.

I don't care about what happened 20 plus years ago - the situation was different , we didn't leave a trade market that is a big part of our financial structure in this nation - what matters is right now , and it's clear the effect was very much under estimated and it's clear that even you don't have the answers or the solutions.

Right now our currency is under performing by a considerable margin on the world scale - to me that doesn't sound good - your answer was going back in time 20 years , that isn't the answer for right now.

We haven't even started the procedure to leave the EU and it's affecting people - this is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg - you can call me negative if you so wish but right now not one single person has come up with anything positive at the moment beyond saying "it will be alright" "we now have control" "don't under estimate how British we are" - it's all sound bite utter nonsense that doesn't practically achieve anything

So until someone can actually come up with a plan to make everything work for the better I will continue to exercise my right to voice my fears and worries about what a pathetic state we are in right now - a mess driven by complete cowards like Johnson and Farage

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Sounds like a good time for foreign investors to be buying Sterling, while it is artificially low, it will recover and someone will make a mint.

Bet George Soros is doing just that

It'll be fine as long as we don't talk ourselves into a recession that doesn't need to happen

 

[harpo_72]

I don't care about what happened 20 plus years ago - the situation was different , we didn't leave a trade market that is a big part of our financial structure in this nation - what matters is right now , and it's clear the effect was very much under estimated and it's clear that even you don't have the answers or the solutions.

Right now our currency is under performing by a considerable margin on the world scale - to me that doesn't sound good - your answer was going back in time 20 years , that isn't the answer for right now.

We haven't even started the procedure to leave the EU and it's affecting people - this is no doubt just the tip of the iceberg - you can call me negative if you so wish but right now not one single person has come up with anything positive at the moment beyond saying "it will be alright" "we now have control" "don't under estimate how British we are" - it's all sound bite utter nonsense that doesn't practically achieve anything

So until someone can actually come up with a plan to make everything work for the better I will continue to exercise my right to voice my fears and worries about what a pathetic state we are in right now - a mess driven by complete cowards like Johnson and Farage

Exactly right, behaving like a football fan with over expectation or naivety will only lead to disappointment.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I dont disagree over tax dodgers but as I have said two wrongs don't make a right. What I am saying is we spend too much on welfare and have created a culture whereby too many people think they have an entitlement to tax payers money. Rather than tar them ALL with the same brush I am saying if you can work then work or get nothing. Do you disagree with that? I would say that anyone suggesting that there are not a great number of people claiming benefits rather than work either dont get out and about much or are very naive.

I also think (as a pensioner) that there are too many well off pensioners having benefits that the country cant afford and this needs to be addressed.

You use 6 words to dismiss the tax dodgers and the rest is the issues with the Welfare State, you're brushing over the biggest issue, the media and the people with the money are deflecting on to the poorest and the lowest in society, it's not about 2 wrongs, there are hundreds of wrong, but surely we should be tackling the biggest problems first, what would have the biggest impact on the economy if we were to sort these 2 issues out, the 1 1/2 Billion into the Treasury or 36 Billion.