EU Referendum

[Foxholer]

I think the current debacle is all the evidence we need that referenda are not the way ahead. A series of preposterous statements, wild speculation and downright lies from both sides have left an ill informed public none the wiser when it comes to how to vote.

Without going to the extent of the Swiss, I believe it's because of the rarity of referendums that such diabolical behavior happens! It may be wishful thinking (newspapers will still be well placed to 'guide' their readers), but I believe more referendums would both expose the true nature of the politicians and (perhaps) get the general public more involved in the democratic process!

 

[SocketRocket]

I think the current debacle is all the evidence we need that referenda are not the way ahead. A series of preposterous statements, wild speculation and downright lies from both sides have left an ill informed public none the wiser when it comes to how to vote.

I think that's correct. from my perspective the problem has been the way the Referendum was rushed through so as to not allow enough time for either side to create suitable honest information, coupled with a government that did not make a strong enough set of negotiations with the EU such that a clear case could be presented as to the more likely effects of either decision.

 

[Ethan]

You just can't help youself.

Oh come on, you sneak a look at The Daily Mail now and again.

 

[vkurup]

I'm not
a racist
A Daily Mail reader
xenophobic
Or uneducated

Why do some of the remain side on here think that those who wish to leave are?

Im voting out for one reason only. The people in the UK have only ever voted to be part of a European Common Market, not for a European state that has control over any countries abilities to make its own decisions and laws.

I now have the opportunity IMO, to vote on who controls the UK. Whatever the outcome then so be it, but a least I have had my chance to vote.

A bit confused .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in..
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules

 

[Ethan]

A bit confused .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in..
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules

Not for the first time.

Answer to your question - Yes. Or possibly no. It all depends.

Hope that has cleared it all up for you.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I agree, I always employed those who put themselves out to work even though it was obvious it wasn't for them rather than waiting for that special position that's going to come around....!

I've never not worked, before I opened my business and when I was creating the business and fitting it out for months prior to opening, I was working nights at ToysRUs stacking pallets and loading lorries, I did some door knocking for our local paper trying to sign people up and also leaflet distribution, all this was nights or late afternoon so it didn't get into the way of what I needed to do in the day, the same as anyone who needs a full day to apply for jobs from home!

It's too easy to make excuses and blame everyone and anything but yourself, I wouldn't give him a second look!

Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone. But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment. But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck. And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way. And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept. And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his £57 a week. Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son. For £57 a week. And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way. The Tories repulse me. And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him. She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also. Absolutely sickening way to treat people.

 

[Old Skier]

Oh come on, you sneak a look at The Daily Mail now and again.

Only when you leave your copy lying about.

 

[Old Skier]

If we vote to stay in..
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules

Who knows, we have got this far by stealth and deception.

 

[Foxholer]

A bit confused .. while i understand the Out option
If we vote to stay in..
1) do we continue to be part of common markets, continue under the jurisdiction of folks like the ECHR, some EU laws, retain the Sterling etc or
2) Do we become a EU state with EUR as currency and things fully dictated by Brussules

You are, indeed, confused!

ECHR is completely separate from the EU!!!

As for the rest...well we'll continue to be an EU State! And No, we'll still use Sterling as currency! Oh! And the perception that things are 'dictated by Brussels' is simply wrong! It's all very democratic!

 

[SocketRocket]

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
...We have no control on EU migration...



A 2-way street! And Cameron has negotiated some movement on the 'more politically sensitive' aspects (benefits).

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
...we have no control in our justice system...



What rulings have there been that have gone against UK Govt. that have actually been 'unjust'?

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
...we have no control on new laws being imposed on us...



What laws have been 'imposed on on us' that are actually objectionable? And there's still the 'veto' available - though it's no longer a simple veto.

image: http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/misc/quote_icon.png

Originally Posted by SocketRocketimage: [url]http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png

[/URL]
...we have no control on throwing foreign criminals out of the country...



Of course we have - where justified! Certainly as much as we would have after a Brexit!


Can you reply to me please?

Although your post is a mess I will try to answer the points. It may take a few posts as I am working now and have little time to do it.

.We have no control on EU migration..

There is no question about this as long as we are members of the EU we have no control of how many EU Citizens come to live here.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Although your post is a mess I will try to answer the points. It may take a few posts as I am working now and have little time to do it.

.We have no control on EU migration..

There is no question about this as long as we are members of the EU we have no control of how many EU Citizens come to live here.

If you'd prefer, you can quote Foxholers original post, where it is laid out much better

 

[MarkE]

And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

But the Tories can be held accountable and if the populace wish, can be voted out at the next election. If we don't like what the EU imposes on us, tough, nothing the people of the UK can do about it. That is the main reason for leaving imo.

 

[SocketRocket]

If you'd prefer, you can quote Foxholers original post, where it is laid out much better

Cant see it he's on my ignore list.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone. But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment. But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck. And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way. And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept. And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his £57 a week. Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son. For £57 a week. And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way. The Tories repulse me. And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him. She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also. Absolutely sickening way to treat people.

So you must be against all the UK immigrants coming over as it sounds from you there are no jobs for them to do and they will all end up on JSA.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Yup - that's the face of caring, compassionate conservatism.

My son started up his own business and we lent him money so that he could as he was getting no support and funding from anyone. But it didn't work out - and so he is back looking for employment. But he is in Sheffield - and work isn't so easy to come by in Sheffield - and that is where all his business contacts, network and friends are.

And he has been applying for 6 jobs every day for quite some time now - but no luck. And because he has now been on JSA for 'too long' he MUST accept whatever the job center puts his way. And surprise, surprise that paragon of employment virtue called Tesco are willing to provide him with unpaid employment - that he MUST accept. And as he has determination to get a job or get his own business up and running again he says sorry - it's really not suitable - and so they stop his £57 a week. Meanwhile my son struggles on trying to get his wee business up and running to get some money in, and has nothing - is penniless.

This is a disgusting way to treat folk like my son. For £57 a week. And who ends up helping him our - we;l of course we do - but the fact that we can is irrelevant, the state should not treat people in such a demeaning and humiliating way. The Tories repulse me. And so let no one be in any doubt what a Tory led Brexitted UK government will do to the poor and weak of our society.

And oh yes - his girlfriend shares a flat with him. She is alos on JSA actively seeking work - and because my son has said no to the Tesco slavery - she has had HER JSA stopped also. Absolutely sickening way to treat people.

Obviously you know the facts better than me, but I also know teenagers/20'somethings. 6 jobs a day, 7 days a week, is 42 jobs a week. Do that for 3 months (13 weeks - so not that long at all) and he has applied for 546 jobs.

After 546 job applications either: a) he is exaggerating how many he applied for, b) he is applying for the wrong jobs (if he has been turned down by 546 bar jobs then there is an underlying issue with his applications), or c) he is in the wrong area, and needs to move.

I would also point out that it isn't unpaid at Tesco, as he gets his JSA (although it would be a rubbish hourly rate, which I agree is horrendous. How many hours are they expecting him to work? I'd be surprised if it's 40 hours p/w!)

You point out he is trying to get his business up and running but it isn't working, maybe it's worth assessing if it's a reasonable business plan (again, is it the plan, the area, or your son not putting in as much effort as he thinks he is).

I completely understand that on the face of it this individual circumstance can appear very unfair, but there are some rules for a reason. If your son is only applying for "nice" positions, why is it on the taxpayer to fund that?


edit: Just to point out, i don't want to appear like i'm attacking your son, just looking at it hypothetically, which obviously you won't be, you'll be looking at the facts more (albeit with an inherent bias, which i'm sure you already know)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think there is a huge difference in attitude between the sides. I don't know any 'Remain' people who feel passionately about the EU or Brussels or any of the elements of being in the EU. They mostly see it as a pragmatic and imperfect but basically positive thing.

But on the 'Leave' side, zut alors, quel difference!. Brexiteers feel very strongly about making Britain great again (whether that means), controlling our own destiny (see previous parenthesis), the sovereignty of Westminster which up until a short time ago they hated as a cesspit of corruption and corporate self-interest. They moan about the pressure on the NHS, schools and public services but many voted for a Govt intent on reducing funding to all of those. And as has happened repeatedly over history, they have been distracted from domestic politics and their own fecklessness and told to blame immigrants. This is the oldest tactic in the book, and is especially liked by right wing governments. It is much easier than actually doing something to improve these public services.

Instead of leaving the EU, we should leave the Tories behind. That would do a lot to start to move to sorting the problems that are getting everyone riled up and taking it out on the wrong targets.

Absolutely spot on

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But the Tories can be held accountable and if the populace wish, can be voted out at the next election. If we don't like what the EU imposes on us, tough, nothing the people of the UK can do about it. That is the main reason for leaving imo.

Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed

 

[Foxholer]

So you must be against all the UK immigrants coming over as it sounds from you there are no jobs for them to do and they will all end up on JSA.

Assuming that it's meant to be 'EU immigrants'...The actual figures show that that statement is wrong, and the vast majority either have a job to go to or find work (even zero hour contract ones) very quickly.

@SILH. My sympathy to your son and his G/F! That treatment is obscene!

 

[Hobbit]

Yes - if many who voted Tory gave a jot about the likes of my son when they read the guff the likes of the DM spouts about the scrouging unemployed

But your son have been given the chance to find the job he wants, and he has been unsuccessful. He needs to broaden his scope of what he's willing to accept.

He still has a choice! Take anything or no JSA. And there's no reason why he still can't look when he's with Tesco's. I can't see why the state is at fault.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Obviously you know the facts better than me, but I also know teenagers/20'somethings. 6 jobs a day, 7 days a week, is 42 jobs a week. Do that for 3 months (13 weeks - so not that long at all) and he has applied for 546 jobs.

After 546 job applications either: a) he is exaggerating how many he applied for, b) he is applying for the wrong jobs (if he has been turned down by 546 bar jobs then there is an underlying issue with his applications), or c) he is in the wrong area, and needs to move.

I would also point out that it isn't unpaid at Tesco, as he gets his JSA (although it would be a rubbish hourly rate, which I agree is horrendous. How many hours are they expecting him to work? I'd be surprised if it's 40 hours p/w!)

You point out he is trying to get his business up and running but it isn't working, maybe it's worth assessing if it's a reasonable business plan (again, is it the plan, the area, or your son not putting in as much effort as he thinks he is).

I completely understand that on the face of it this individual circumstance can appear very unfair, but there are some rules for a reason. If your son is only applying for "nice" positions, why is it on the taxpayer to fund that?


edit: Just to point out, i don't want to appear like i'm attacking your son, just looking at it hypothetically, which obviously you won't be, you'll be looking at the facts more (albeit with an inherent bias, which i'm sure you already know)

It's 37.5 hours a week he is expected to work at Tesco for his £57.

And he has no choice - I don't know the agreement he has with his work Coach and what he signed up to in his Claimant Commitment, and if that is 6 jobs a day (maybe on average) then that is what he has been doing. In wrong area - Sheffield? Possibly. But if he is going to get his business back up and running and getting himself off the dole then his best chance is with him staying in Sheffield.

And I might say that I would expect the taxpayer to fund him £57 a week - because I am a taxpayer and claiming nothing and fortunately have never had to. But I expect a bit of humanity, consideration and respect to be shown to someone who has got himself a degree (and racked up the debts); has tried to start up a business of his own, and who has shown real commitment to getting a job.

And why his girlfriend has had HER JSA stopped also because of his turning down a 'job' I just don't get at all - apparently because they are at the same address and signed-on jointly (for whatever reason)

What are they supposed to live on - fresh air? The whole system stinks.

...and he still has to pay his £100 a month council tax...