EU Referendum

[Hobbit]

Absolutely, the same counts for Brits, thats how our country has managed to build up a £1.5 Trillion national debt. The point is that immigrants create exactly the same debt, they are not all pilling in excess money that we have to spend on improving the country. You are wrong, most do cost more than they put in just as the people here already do, all immigration does is delay the day when we will be forced to take out no more than we put in.

Well it's taken a couple of months but I finally think I understand where you're coming from.... Not sure either way if you're right.

Basically, a large number of immigrants come in with poor qualifications and end up at the lower end of the jobs market, meaning they're on or about minimum wage. That nets the Treasury about £1800 a year. If they are over 25 yrs of age, irrespective of having children, they get a tax credit of £1960. That means they pay no tax, only the NI. And they can earn a further £150+ a month in overtime or second job before they'll pay tax.

Putting the usual spin on it X many immigrants, on minimum wage, are all paying £1800 a year. That's a huge gain for the Treasury, which is the spin, until you take into account the tax credits.

No doubt there are other benefits, like housing allowance... But then there's the UK infrastructure to pay for, NHS, education etc.

Don't know whether it is a win or lose to the economy.

 

[vkurup]

Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest??

I found Michael Gove's debating skills very interesting.. he is a keen debater (if that is a word). If he had some good facts to back things up then it would have been a compelling argument. If he was arguing the case for Remain, you could see how good that argument would have been.

On another note, i like the concept of him and Boris saying we can allow more Indians and Chinese skilled workers if we exit. I am not sure if they read the memo that it is their govt which is not allowing Indian and Chinese skilled workers in the first place!! Of those who are here, it is their govt that is now going to force thousands of existing NHS nurses to leave the UK because they dont meet the salary requirement under the point based system. Again ironically, it is they who indirectly set the salary bands for the NHS nurses in the first place. But lets not facts ruin a good story/fantasy/myth from the Brexit camp.

 

[SocketRocket]

Is this thread turning into SR v/s the rest??

Thats a rather stupid comment for an educated person. I am far from being the only person on here that favours Brexit. Also, as this is a debating Forum is it a problem to you if I take an active part? Or, as I suspect my opinion differs from yours and if I was posting in favour of 'Remain' you would think it OK!

 

[SocketRocket]

H

I'm not wrong. You have no evidence that they take out more than they put in other than your assumptions and generalisations.

If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

 

[Ethan]

I dont believe the claim that immigrants pay in more than they take out, thats a very naive and misleading claim and peddled by the rich and the silly idealistic left wing. If you look at immigrants over a very short time frame they pay a very small amount in due to many being young and single, as they stay they start to have families, get ill, their kids go to school, they claim tax credits and family allowance, get old and claim pensions etc. Over a longer frame they cost a great deal of money. The other point that seems to be missed is how high populations put countries under great stress as they create competition for scarce resources, how do we create enough electricity for example with a population growing at a million people every three years, we are looking at the lights going out in the near future anyway due to the stupid closures of power stations, just imagine how this will be when we reach 80 million. I wont rant on about the NHS, schools, housing and infrastructure as the strain on these is undeniable.

Wow. Even by your standards that is an incoherent and pitiful argument. One of the fundamental components of economics is the concept that benefits (in a non welfare state sense) now with costs later is a good thing. The economies of every western state whether in the EU or not depend on this and push costs further down the line. That immigrants get older dors not negate the benefits of having them now. The changing demographics of the U.K. demand that more younger people of working age come in in order to balance the increasing number of non working oldies. This problem is going to get worse due to erosion of pensions for these oldies with less tax and more state support needed for them.

 

[SocketRocket]

Wow. Even by your standards that is an incoherent and pitiful argument. One of the fundamental components of economics is the concept that benefits (in a non welfare state sense) now with costs later is a good thing. The economies of every western state whether in the EU or not depend on this and push costs further down the line. That immigrants get older dors not negate the benefits of having them now. The changing demographics of the U.K. demand that more younger people of working age come in in order to balance the increasing number of non working oldies. This problem is going to get worse due to erosion of pensions for these oldies with less tax and more state support needed for them.

OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment. I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment. I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.

is £20bn sizeable? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

 

[SocketRocket]

is £20bn sizeable? http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/05/eu-migrants-uk-gains-20bn-ucl-study

I asked it to be backed up with facts and data,
Show me how long term immigrants make a long term positive contribution to the countries finances.. You will see if you take a little time to check they make the same negative contributions as native Bits. Take a look at the link I posted and how immigrants begin to cost more over the long term and how non eu immigrants are even worse.

 

[vkurup]

Thats a rather stupid comment for an educated person. I am far from being the only person on here that favours Brexit. Also, as this is a debating Forum is it a problem to you if I take an active part? Or, as I suspect my opinion differs from yours and if I was posting in favour of 'Remain' you would think it OK!

SR,. i have no problem with your views, opinions or which way you lean on this debate. It is a debating forumn so see no issues with it. I visit this thread every couple of days and I see the same old debate doing the rounds and you are holding the charge for the remainers. You are my personal Boris

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

I asked it to be backed up with facts and data,
Show me how long term immigrants make a long term positive contribution to the countries finances.. You will see if you take a little time to check they make the same negative contributions as native Bits. Take a look at the link I posted and how immigrants begin to cost more over the long term and how non eu immigrants are even worse.

Hang on, your specific question was "OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term"

Pretty sure my link does that. Any reason that it doesn't?

 

[Foxholer]

If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?!

Seems another case of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (Charts) or added 'fudge factor!' to me! And I'd also challenge (both sides) as to why the particular choice of dates - 2001 for the report and 1995 for the rebuttal! Actually, I can hazard a guess at why 1995 was chosen, as that appears to have some pretty bad numbers! It wasn't actually 'the best of times' from my memory!

 

[Ethan]

OK, show me the evidence that immigration created a sizeable benefit in net contributions in the short term, there is no case to suggest there is any net benefit long term but I would like to see how you can back up your (normal) rude comment. I look forward to some facts rather than hackneyed words.

Facts. Oh dear, the irony. Tell me why what I said above was wrong, and why it was, no doubt, left-leaning and arrogant.

Meantime take a look at the well known leftie organ The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

See also (for a general discussion), an article on US immigration by the conservative think-tank The Manhattan Institute. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/economic-benefits-immigration-5712.html

 

[FairwayDodger]

I am now even more confused. Are we saying the country would be more economically successful if nobody lived here?

In all seriousness I think the free movement of people is a great thing. Our European friends and neighbours can come and work here and we can go and do likewise in their countries. What's not to like?

 

[vkurup]

In other news.. This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..
From the Facebook post>>
Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this ‪#‎BenefitsMum‬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled “Britain’s most shameless mum” and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on £7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesn’t care if people label her a “scrounger”, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.


Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit. If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?

 

[Ethan]

In other news.. This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..
From the Facebook post>>
Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this ‪#‎BenefitsMum‬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled “Britain’s most shameless mum” and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on £7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesn’t care if people label her a “scrounger”, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.


Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit. If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?

Did you not get the memo?

In EU debates, people like her are British workers, capable of overcoming the challenges of a shrinking world, and will make the UK great again after leaving the constraints of the EU super-state.

After the EU debate, she will be a feckless drain on resources driving the world ever faster over the cliff-edge of the over-population apocalypse.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?

I think you're looking at the non EU immigrants line on the graph. Helpfully they swapped the colours for the EU and non EU immigrants between the graph and cumulative totals.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

In other news.. This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..
From the Facebook post>>
Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this ‪#‎BenefitsMum‬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled “Britain’s most shameless mum” and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on £7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesn’t care if people label her a “scrounger”, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.


Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit. If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?

This is a seperate issue in itself that spineless politicians have promised to cure for years but done nothing about.

Being unemployed is now a career path due to our ridiculous benefits system.

 

[jp5]

I am now even more confused. Are we saying the country would be more economically successful if nobody lived here?

In all seriousness I think the free movement of people is a great thing. Our European friends and neighbours can come and work here and we can go and do likewise in their countries. What's not to like?

I'd agree with you if the Government used the additional tax resources from immigrants to fund additional services / housing / transport etc.

Unfortunately a surge in immigration has coincided with the austerity years, so it's no wonder that immigrants come in for a hard time.

London and the south east is a world away from Scotland, where emigration is more of an issue as I understand!

 

[Foxholer]

I think you're looking at the non EU immigrants line on the graph. Helpfully they swapped the colours for the EU and non EU immigrants between the graph and cumulative totals.

:rofl: So they did, the sneaky devils!

That, of course, means that Socket's statement that 'they make the same negative contribution as Bits' is clearly wrong - at least according to that chart! Except for the first few years (h'mm!), the 'European' values are always above the 'British born' ones!

 

[FairwayDodger]

London and the south east is a world away from Scotland, where emigration is more of an issue as I understand!

Indeed there has long been an exodus from Scotland to the bright lights of London so it's not just immigration raising the demand for services down there. The only viable long term solution is to spread the wealth around the country such that Brits aren't necessarily drawn to London to progress their careers and that immigrants settle in a more distributed fashion around the country....