EU Referendum

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Was always going to end up all about immigration as an unfortunate 'many' in today's UK have such over-inflated feelings of entitlement that they have to find a scapegoat for their resentments, frustrations and anger, rather than look to and at themselves and their own (indigenous) communities. There are many who can frame a coherent and cogent argument for Leaving the EU - however I fear that the majority who will vote Leave will simply do so out of resentment. And their resentments and anger will continue when they find that Leaving wasn't the answer to their problems.

 

[SocketRocket]

You carry on believing that then!

To me, all it shows is that the 'contribution rates' vary in line with the economy! That's no surprise!

Oh! And that EU Immigrants 'perform' better than either natives or non-EU immigrants (not really all that muchof a surprise to me either!)!

Though where the Torygraph got pre-2001 figures from, I have no idea. The actual report (I believe it's the one Ethan showed the link to the Economics Jounal, but is certainly this one http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) and states why only the 2001 onward data should be used!

You dont seem to get it. If you looked at immigration costs over a period the longer you look the more they cost until they get to the same cost as the Native Brits. They don't stay new immigrants for ever, they eventually have the same entitlement values and expect the state to subsidise their lifestyles. The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer, they are not lazier than EU people they have just normalised themselves to the wishy washy liberal way the UK has made people less responsible for their own life. Your comment that they perform better than natives or non-eu immigrants supports this fact.

I would add that hardly anyone is suggesting we stop immigration, that would be stupid, we just need to encourage people that we need to fill jobs that cannot be filled by those already here.

 

[SocketRocket]

Can someone remind me again what point the "Leave" campaign dropped the facade it's not all about immigration?

Thats a rather silly comment. Immigration is a huge factor to many people in this referendum and why not! It seems from Cameron it's also about starting wars, putting bombs under the economy, throwing us all on the dole, migrant camps along the south coast, keeping us nice and safe from terrorism, not being able to buy a new BMW and having a few million pounds to buy a euro

 

[IanM]

I am an avid "Leave" person.... and my grand mother was Polish and my grandfather Lithuanian! Keeping it factual and objective (as far as it possible) I think...

1) The excellent ideals of "free trade" have been sacrificed for increasing Federalism, without asking the electorate. (Some say that was always the intension, but who knows)
2) The single currency is dangerous with such diversity of economies... e.g. Germany and Greece being having same exchange rates and interest rates is daft (and isn't working) Greece and Italy were no where near meeting the criteria set for joining - so why were they allowed in? (This is killing Greece at the moment)
3) The Commissioners and Presidents of various bodies are responsible for most of UK laws now... we didn't vote them in and we cant vote them out. That's not acceptable to me.
4) Immigration. Time for a grown up conversation. Minimum wage/wages in general here are miles higher than all of the Eastern European States. Hence they are here in numbers! And good luck to them too...we'd all do the same if places were reversed (Remember the 80s TV "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" ...the brickies went in search of work) But, as we do not have a surplus of jobs and services in the UK (and haven't since the 60s!) ... what is the effect? You cant add people to an existing queue without the queue getting longer. If we stay in EU, we have no control over this at all. What does that do to the provision of schools places, hospital beds, housing and jobs?
5) Sovereignty. I think we should govern ourselves, not have a small seat at the EU Table.
6) Trade..will still happen. Germany needs us to buy their cars, the French need us to buy their wine and Spain needs our tourists. If they hike the prices, we'll buy Aussie wine, Japanese cars (built in Swindon!) and holiday in Turkey...which golfers already do as the prices are much lower than Spain and Portugal (since the Euro!) (anyone been to SW Ireland since the Euro? eek!)
7) Look at which public bodies are getting EU Grant Money.... they are highly prominent on the list of "experts" saying remain. mmmmm
8) I think the EU is about to fall anyway, (little piece of subjectivity if I may) ... reason... there are too few net contributors and too many net receivers. (that's fact) Not sustainable.

...I have worked in Switzerland and Norway (not in EU , but seem to manage!) recently, also in France and Germany... the anti EU movements there are large, but I have yet to see anything on BBC/ITV about them. Why might that be?


ooh, its going to be close and I do expect dirty tricks from Brussels. The hate us, but they need our cash.

 

[Hacker Khan]

But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future. There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, families taking more responsibility,using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.

I believe Asians have a culture of taking in elderly relatives which we could learn a lot from. So get some more Asians in the UK and we'll be sorted.

 

[Foxholer]

You dont seem to get it. If you looked at immigration costs over a period the longer you look the more they cost until they get to the same cost as the Native Brits. They don't stay new immigrants for ever, they eventually have the same entitlement values and expect the state to subsidise their lifestyles. The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer, they are not lazier than EU people they have just normalised themselves to the wishy washy liberal way the UK has made people less responsible for their own life. Your comment that they perform better than natives or non-eu immigrants supports this fact.

I would add that hardly anyone is suggesting we stop immigration, that would be stupid, we just need to encourage people that we need to fill jobs that cannot be filled by those already here.

Unless you can actually provide some actual facts/data, you are only speculating!

An equivalent speculation - that EU originating immigrants 'retire to their home country' is just as justified!

Btw. The simple fact that the chart does not simply show 3 simple downward sloping lines demonstrates the fallacy of your argument! What it does do, is show pretty usual variances over time that reflect the health of the UK economy at those times!

 

[Old Skier]

Did any of the intellectual members come up with the reason that there were not going to be major concerns on leaving the EU last year but this year it will result in the UK ceasing to trade, terrorism at an all time high and the likely hood of another war in Europe?

 

[Foxholer]

...The only reason the non-eu immigrants perform worse on that graph is that generally they have lived here longer...

The figures are for absolute equivalent conditions - those arriving from 2001! And non-EU migrants (as a group) have never been positive contributors!

In earlier posts, you deny that EU migrants 'go home', so you are wrong in at least 1 of your assertions!

 

[SocketRocket]

I believe Asians have a culture of taking in elderly relatives which we could learn a lot from. So get some more Asians in the UK and we'll be sorted.

Asians are at a disadvantage with the current EU open borders so yes, Brexit would give them a more level playing field to be considered for a life in the UK.

Silly Smiley again. Silly boy.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Did any of the intellectual members come up with the reason that there were not going to be major concerns on leaving the EU last year but this year it will result in the UK ceasing to trade, terrorism at an all time high and the likely hood of another war in Europe?

Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?

 

[Old Skier]

Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?

No as he is a minor player. Would have preferred to hear from the experts who are currently spreading doom and gloom.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Not sure, but a year ago Boris was all for staying in Europe.
He has now seen a political opportunity for himself which has persuaded him to say the opposite.
Does that count?

Why have you changed the subject rather than answering the question that was asked? Cameron stated that if his negotiations were not successful then he could back the UK leaving the EU. If his negotiations were such a success then what was it that he negotiated that has made such a massive difference?

Yes, Boris Johnson decided to back Leave rather than Remain but I suspect you wouldn't have such a problem with him changing his position if he had changed in the opposite direction.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Asians are at a disadvantage with the current EU open borders so yes, Brexit would give them a more level playing field to be considered for a life in the UK.

Silly Smiley again. Silly boy.

But I thought you had said many times that immigrants are not a solution to the nations wealth? So are you now saying that a Brexit would be good as it makes it a more level playing field for immigrants from non EU countries? Who may increase the good of the nation after all?

Not sure about anyone else but I am getting a bit confused here where you stand on immigration. Please tell us more as you haven't mentioned it much in this thread.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

I am an avid "Leave" person.... and my grand mother was Polish and my grandfather Lithuanian! Keeping it factual and objective (as far as it possible) I think...

1) The excellent ideals of "free trade" have been sacrificed for increasing Federalism, without asking the electorate. (Some say that was always the intension, but who knows)
2) The single currency is dangerous with such diversity of economies... e.g. Germany and Greece being having same exchange rates and interest rates is daft (and isn't working) Greece and Italy were no where near meeting the criteria set for joining - so why were they allowed in? (This is killing Greece at the moment)
3) The Commissioners and Presidents of various bodies are responsible for most of UK laws now... we didn't vote them in and we cant vote them out. That's not acceptable to me.
4) Immigration. Time for a grown up conversation. Minimum wage/wages in general here are miles higher than all of the Eastern European States. Hence they are here in numbers! And good luck to them too...we'd all do the same if places were reversed (Remember the 80s TV "Auf Wiedersehen Pet" ...the brickies went in search of work) But, as we do not have a surplus of jobs and services in the UK (and haven't since the 60s!) ... what is the effect? You cant add people to an existing queue without the queue getting longer. If we stay in EU, we have no control over this at all. What does that do to the provision of schools places, hospital beds, housing and jobs?
5) Sovereignty. I think we should govern ourselves, not have a small seat at the EU Table.
6) Trade..will still happen. Germany needs us to buy their cars, the French need us to buy their wine and Spain needs our tourists. If they hike the prices, we'll buy Aussie wine, Japanese cars (built in Swindon!) and holiday in Turkey...which golfers already do as the prices are much lower than Spain and Portugal (since the Euro!) (anyone been to SW Ireland since the Euro? eek!)
7) Look at which public bodies are getting EU Grant Money.... they are highly prominent on the list of "experts" saying remain. mmmmm
8) I think the EU is about to fall anyway, (little piece of subjectivity if I may) ... reason... there are too few net contributors and too many net receivers. (that's fact) Not sustainable.

...I have worked in Switzerland and Norway (not in EU , but seem to manage!) recently, also in France and Germany... the anti EU movements there are large, but I have yet to see anything on BBC/ITV about them. Why might that be?


ooh, its going to be close and I do expect dirty tricks from Brussels. The hate us, but they need our cash.

Congratulations sir on what is probably the best post on this entire thread :thup:

 

[SocketRocket]

But I thought you had said many times that immigrants are not a solution to the nations wealth? So are you now saying that a Brexit would be good as it makes it a more level playing field for immigrants from non EU countries? Who may increase the good of the nation after all?

Not sure about anyone else but I am getting a bit confused here where you stand on immigration. Please tell us more as you haven't mentioned it much in this thread.

It's probably your selective reading or even selective prejudice if you haven't taken in my stance on immigration.

I have stated many times in reply to those that suggest that immigration gives an overall net contribution to the exchequer that the premiss is incorrect over the long term and very small in the short term.

I have made it clear that anyone suggesting we have no migration is wrong.

I have also explained that my preference is for the UK to decide the number and skills required on an annual basis and to allow immigrants from any country that meet the criteria.

I don't like the way anyone from the EU irrespective of skills can take priority over the rest of the worlds skilled applicants.

I have said that I believe we have taken too many immigrants over the last decade and it has created stress to our services and hits the lower paid the highest. I also believe the extrapolated levels we can expect that would push the UK population to 89 Million by 2030 will create very big problems in areas like power supply, especially after the silly policies of closing power stations with no plan to replace them.

There are a few of the things I have posted so I hope that enlightens you somewhat. Although I somehow expect the same question at some later point.

 

[SocketRocket]

The figures are for absolute equivalent conditions - those arriving from 2001! And non-EU migrants (as a group) have never been positive contributors!

In earlier posts, you deny that EU migrants 'go home', so you are wrong in at least 1 of your assertions!

Some may go home, it would be stupid to suggest none will but why would they want to go home to be poor in later life. It makes no sense and is not what has traditionally happened with immigrants. How many went home to the Caribbean for example.

 

[FairwayDodger]

My brother has just realised that tonight is the deadline to register to vote and he doesn't have the internet so I'm trying to register for him. The website has clearly not been scaled to cope with the demand as I've been trying for about an hour without success. Another government IT fiasco.

 

[ColchesterFC]

My brother has just realised that tonight is the deadline to register to vote and he doesn't have the internet so I'm trying to register for him. The website has clearly not been scaled to cope with the demand as I've been trying for about an hour without success. Another government IT fiasco.

Not sure that you can blame the government for the number of people that have suddenly realised they need to register to vote. It's not like the date of a referendum has been kept secret and people have had plenty of time to register if they were that bothered about doing it.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Not sure that you can blame the government for the number of people that have suddenly realised they need to register to vote. It's not like the date of a referendum has been kept secret and people have had plenty of time to register if they were that bothered about doing it.

Think I can. There's been a sudden blitz of publicity about the deadline today hence the obvious spike in demand and the website just can't cope. It's very poor, amateurish.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Think I can. There's been a sudden blitz of publicity about the deadline today hence the obvious spike in demand and the website just can't cope. It's very poor, amateurish.

But it isn't a "sudden blitz of publicity" as it's been going on for a while now. There have been posts on Facebook and Twitter for at least a month about making sure you are registered to vote in time and we also got something through the post about it as well. I wonder if the sudden blitz you mention (aimed mainly at younger voters who are more likely to vote Remain) is anything to do with how close the polls are suggesting the vote is going to be?