EU Referendum

[Doon frae Troon]

[Pinched from the footy site]

Leave leaders say there is still 20 million days left to vote.:lol:

 

[Hacker Khan]

I think it is disgraceful that the government are pouring millions of tax payers money into getting the young people to register through methods such as social media. I do not pay my taxes for it to be spent on silly campaigns on Facebook and Twitter and for getting young people involved in democracy.

It is obvious why they are doing this as young people will on average vote to stay in. So why are they not promoting 'registering to vote' in other places which I daresay will be more favourable to a leave vote? Such as UKIP HQ, The Daily Mail, Greggs the bakers, old people's homes and golf clubhouses?

Yet another indication of how this vote is being fixed by the government.

 

[bluewolf]

Indeed there has long been an exodus from Scotland to the bright lights of London so it's not just immigration raising the demand for services down there. The only viable long term solution is to spread the wealth around the country such that Brits aren't necessarily drawn to London to progress their careers and that immigrants settle in a more distributed fashion around the country....

Careful, you'll have Doon promoting the benefits of a Preston based Government base. Last thing we need up here is a load of scrounging, work shy, ridiculously entitled upstarts moving in.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I think it is disgraceful that the government are pouring millions of tax payers money into getting the young people to register through methods such as social media. I do not pay my taxes for it to be spent on silly campaigns on Facebook and Twitter and for getting young people involved in democracy.

It is obvious why they are doing this as young people will on average vote to stay in. So why are they not promoting 'registering to vote' in other places which I daresay will be more favourable to a leave vote? Such as UKIP HQ, The Daily Mail, Greggs the bakers, old people's homes and golf clubhouses?

Yet another indication of how this vote is being fixed by the government.

Posting on twitter and Facebook is free so unless they are paying extra to advertise this should cost nothing more than time to post. Cheaper than old fashioned methods of promotion. I understand your point but frankly I suspect most people over a certain age will already be on the electoral register so the fact they are not seeing the relevant tweets is not an issue.

 

[SocketRocket]

Facts. Oh dear, the irony. Tell me why what I said above was wrong, and why it was, no doubt, left-leaning and arrogant.

Meantime take a look at the well known leftie organ The Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us

See also (for a general discussion), an article on US immigration by the conservative think-tank The Manhattan Institute. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/economic-benefits-immigration-5712.html

That article works on the basis that EU immigrants will return home in their less productive years. That's an absurd suggestion, why would they return home to be poorer.

 

[SocketRocket]

In other news.. This morning carried a story of a (dare i say a British) woman on benefits who wants her 13th child..
From the Facebook post>>
Should you have to pay for this woman's babies?! Because she says you should! Despite living on benefits and already having 12 children, Cheryl Prudham (33) now wants baby number 13 and is seeking a sperm donor. Do you think this ‪#‎BenefitsMum‬ should be allowed to scrounge off of your hard-earned taxes?
Labelled “Britain’s most shameless mum” and despite surviving on benefits, Cheryl goes on £7k holidays and showers her kids with lavish gifts. She will be telling us all about her new baby plan, why she doesn’t care if people label her a “scrounger”, and how she feels she can relate to Princess Diana.


Had she been European, everyone would have jumped onto this as how the immigrants are draining every last bit. If we exit, how does the funding for this work? where does all the extra money come from?

Who exactly endorses this feckless lifestyle and suggest her actions are acceptable? I certainly don't but it's a separate issue so why are you bringing it to this debate?

 

[SocketRocket]

Kindly explain how the chart in the above link works!

The 'Cumulative total' shows EU immigrants providing a net contribution of +4Billion, yet the graph shows them as a constant 'drain on the economy'! How can that be?!

Seems another case of Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics (Charts) or added 'fudge factor!' to me! And I'd also challenge (both sides) as to why the particular choice of dates - 2001 for the report and 1995 for the rebuttal! Actually, I can hazard a guess at why 1995 was chosen, as that appears to have some pretty bad numbers! It wasn't actually 'the best of times' from my memory!

It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time. All three line become negative. OK EU immigrants don'y make the biggest drain but my point is not about that, it's that immigrants and all groups do not make a positive contribution over the long term. They do make a contribution over a short term period but it contributes very little to the population as a whole. So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.

 

[Hobbit]

It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time. All three line become negative. OK EU immigrants don'y make the biggest drain but my point is not about that, it's that immigrants and all groups do not make a positive contribution over the long term. They do make a contribution over a short term period but it contributes very little to the population as a whole. So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.

But it satisfies the short term need for money, just as PFI satisfied the short term NHS need to build hospitals, and the raid on pension funds satisfied Gordon Brown's short term need to buy Labour votes.

None of the above fixes a problem, but it does stick an Elastoplast on it.

 

[SocketRocket]

But it satisfies the short term need for money, just as PFI satisfied the short term NHS need to build hospitals, and the raid on pension funds satisfied Gordon Brown's short term need to buy Labour votes.

None of the above fixes a problem, but it does stick an Elastoplast on it.

I agree with that. My point was to counter those that suggest immigration is an ongoing major benefit to the economy by stating they pay in more than they take out. This is correct in the short term but has penalties in the long.

 

[bluewolf]

I agree with that. My point was to counter those that suggest immigration is an ongoing major benefit to the economy by stating they pay in more than they take out. This is correct in the short term but has penalties in the long.

But, and I hate to go back over old ground, that's exactly what some of us have been saying about immigration for some years. The boom in immigration has bolstered the miserly birth rate of this country, thus providing a short term solution to the ever expanding crisis that is the Pension system. More paying in than drawing out.

 

[Ethan]

That article works on the basis that EU immigrants will return home in their less productive years. That's an absurd suggestion, why would they return home to be poorer.

Have you any data to support that assertion?

Recent history shows that many do return home.

 

[SocketRocket]

Have you any data to support that assertion?

Recent history shows that many do return home.

I asked the question: "Why would they return home to be poorer" the question was framed as the assertion that they did was illogical. it's not up to a questioner to provide the answer, maybe you have some data to support your reply?

 

[SocketRocket]

But, and I hate to go back over old ground, that's exactly what some of us have been saying about immigration for some years. The boom in immigration has bolstered the miserly birth rate of this country, thus providing a short term solution to the ever expanding crisis that is the Pension system. More paying in than drawing out.

But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future. There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, families taking more responsibility, using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.

 

[Foxholer]

It's pretty evident the chart shows that immigrants as well as native Brits all draw down on the exchequer over time. All three line become negative.....

No it doesn't! It merely shows that it varies!

...So back to my old argument, immigration is not a solution to the nations wealth.

I don't believe the argument was actually about this! It certainly can - and has - increase GDP, which is one measure of a nation's wealth! And one that has been consistently used by Brexitters as an indication that UK will prosper without EU migrants!

 

[SocketRocket]

No it doesn't! It merely shows that it varies!



I don't believe the argument was actually about this! It certainly can - and has - increase GDP, which is one measure of a nation's wealth! And one that has been consistently used by Brexitters as an indication that UK will prosper without EU migrants!

Yes it does. Just look at the trend lines over the period.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

But it solves nothing, it's not a solution, all it does is puts a bandaid plaster over a problem that will make the problem much worse in the future. There are other ways to deal with the problem of an ageing population like people working later in life, taxation, encouraging people to have better personal pensions, families taking more responsibility, using tax revenues more for our own population and less for corrupt and sometimes rich regimes and so on.

I have chatted to quite a few Eastern European hotel staff working in the UK..
Nearly all want to work hard for 3-4 years to earn/save enough to buy a house back home and return.
Very few wished to stay in the UK

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Can someone remind me again what point the "Leave" campaign dropped the facade it's not all about immigration?

 

[jp5]

Gove barely mentioned immigration the other day in his TV programme to be fair.

 

[gmc40]

If you cant be bothered to go and check out the historical data then you will continue to be wrong.

Read the information on this link if you would like a more realistic view of the cost and benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...687/Immigration-the-real-cost-to-Britain.html

I was referring to EU migrants as that what this discussion is about. Your post has proved my point and saves me having to look for a link after a hard days work. Cheers

 

[Foxholer]

Yes it does. Just look at the trend lines over the period.

You carry on believing that then!

To me, all it shows is that the 'contribution rates' vary in line with the economy! That's no surprise!

Oh! And that EU Immigrants 'perform' better than either natives or non-EU immigrants (not really all that muchof a surprise to me either!)!

Though where the Torygraph got pre-2001 figures from, I have no idea. The actual report (I believe it's the one Ethan showed the link to the Economics Jounal, but is certainly this one http://www.cream-migration.org/files/FiscalEJ.pdf) and states why only the 2001 onward data should be used!