EU Referendum

[Hacker Khan]

That's quite a clever post. The way you mask your prejudices with satire leaves anyone disagreeing open to an accusation of having a sense of humour short circuit.

It would be interesting to read your view in a less pythoness manner.

I'll take Pythoness. And I don't have any serious views as it's only a bunch of golfers yakking on the internet and life's too short to take that seriously. Including, in fact especially everything that I post. As once you lose the humour and the ability to sneak in a Stone Roses lyric you lose the very essence of life itself. But don't take that seriously either.

 

[SocketRocket]

Anyhow! back to the OP.

I see 'Call me Dave' has now said that he will not allow the Cabinet to use 'Pro EU' speeches either before the 'stich up' us finalised.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Anyhow! back to the OP.

I see 'Call me Dave' has now said that he will not allow the Cabinet to use 'Pro EU' speeches either before the 'stich up' us finalised.

Goodness that's a surprise. [in Haker Khan style]

 

[Crazyface]

My company export, mainly into Europe, which is as easy as selling at home. And a little into Turkey, which is painful, India, which is also painful and the US which is like pulling teeth.

Our engineers drive round Europe installing our boxes, they work and travel freely and only need their passports to get in and out of Blighty.

The advantages of the EU are blindingly obvious for me. For a postman, Doctor, or someone in manufacturing that for some reason doesn't export they might only see the cost of membership. The cost is massively outweighed by the benefit. In fact, to the economy as a whole there is no cost.


It's a long way from perfect, but I would rather we had a say in how our nearest and most important markets are run. Not being at the table seems churlish. I can't help feeling that the no camp could do with spending some time in business, trying to improve the countries' trade deficit, then have another think.

And for those espousing the Norwegian model, they might want to check their figures. It costs them more money and they have no say. A bit like Nigel Farage.

Pray tell how they manage that? I have to show mine to get into Europe so why don't your engineers? Unless you're lying....then how can we trust the rest of your arguement, which you haven't backed up with any figures.

 

[bluewolf]

Pray tell how they manage that? I have to show mine to get into Europe so why don't your engineers? Unless you're lying....then how can we trust the rest of your arguement, which you haven't backed up with any figures.

I suspect they'll take advantage of the Schengen Agreement, of which the UK is not a member state.

 

[Crazyface]

I suspect they'll take advantage of the Schengen Agreement, of which the UK is not a member state.

And that's all gone to poo

 

[bluewolf]

And that's all gone to poo

It's highly likely that the agreement will be amended, but that's not what you asked.

 

[Junior]

20 years ago when i started working for a major industrial engine manufacturer, virtually all of our components were manufactured in the UK. The few suppliers that are left, are mostly warehousing and small amounts of manufacturing. Lots of the production was moved to India, then China, but probably the same amount was moved into Eastern Europe.

Unfortunately, I think we have made our bed.......our economy needs Europe, but we also need a government who can take us back to where we were industrially 20 years ago. How can we make this happen ? Well, unfortunately, that will take a mind far for advanced than mine.....but something along the lines of EU subsidies and incentives for UK manufacturing would be a start. We put enough in the pot, its about time we take some out.

 

[SocketRocket]

20 years ago when i started working for a major industrial engine manufacturer, virtually all of our components were manufactured in the UK. The few suppliers that are left, are mostly warehousing and small amounts of manufacturing. Lots of the production was moved to India, then China, but probably the same amount was moved into Eastern Europe.

Unfortunately, I think we have made our bed.......our economy needs Europe, but we also need a government who can take us back to where we were industrially 20 years ago. How can we make this happen ? Well, unfortunately, that will take a mind far for advanced than mine.....but something along the lines of EU subsidies and incentives for UK manufacturing would be a start. We put enough in the pot, its about time we take some out.

That just wont happen! In the enlarged EU priority will be given to the basket case economies for further investment, the UK is seen as a 'Cash Cow' to finance this. As the boundary's grow wider and take in more poor economies the commission will be looking for more ways to squeeze the few successful countries until the pips squeak.

I hope we have the guts to get out and rise or fall on our own merits.

 

[daverollo]

I haven't seen even the basic outline of any plan to establish a UK that has left the EU in European and global trading and economic bodies (that LEAVE tell us we'll be able to join); nor any costs and criteria to be met associated with joining and being members of such bodies; nor the costs or timescales of untangling the UK from EU legislation. Nothing.

– If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.

– The EU sells a lot more to us than we sell to them. In 2014 there was a trade deficit of over £50bn, with a current account deficit of nearly £100 billion. It seems unlikely that the EU would seek to disrupt a trade which is so beneficial to itself.

– Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

– World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which we'd use going forward.

-The EU has free trade agreements with over 50 countries to overcome high cross border tariffs, and is currently negotiating a number of other agreements. No reason given the above info that a similar agreement could not be reached with the UK

It isn't what we signed up for?. That is a pretty weak argument, isn't it? How many people who voted for or against the EU understand the complexity of international agreements, trade or laws? Even in this debate, most of those opposing the EU seem to think it is only about trade and all these laws made in Brussels. They don't seem to even know that the EU is responsible for a huge range of things including the approval and safety of medicines, air traffic control, anti-discrimination, consumer rights, regulating internet security not to mention keeping peace in a Europe which had 2 huge wars in the preceding half century

So the UK doesn't have NICE or the CAA or our own laws to protect against discrimination (Equality Act 2010 for example) and are incapable of dealing with those areas? Nonsense.

It must also have escaped you, but a united Europe is not what has kept the peace since WW2, it is the formation of NATO in 1949 that has lead to that.

I like Europeans, I like going on holiday to Europe, I have many clients, friends and even relatives that are European, but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be.

Without doubt we are net contributors to the EU well in excess of £10bn per year.

People talk about the 'hidden' benefit of being 'in' Europe and try and quantify a figure as to what that is worth, however, flip that on it's head, WHAT is the cost to UK business and citizens for over burdensome regulation and rules?? I'll provide 1 example soon to hit the UK:

21 March 2016 the European Credit Directive comes into force. This is a long winded process to try and unify a common format for applying for mortgages across Europe. The theory being if you arrange a mortgage in Germany, then you will receive the same paperwork as if you have arranged that mortgage in the UK. Common rules across all Europe.

Why is that needed?? It's not, just an example of EU getting mission creap.

Cost: Rough estimates are that for lenders to be changing their systems to accommodate these changes it will cost them in the region of £50m, guess who will be picking that tab up - you the consumer.

Unintended consequences: Instead of making it easier for people to obtain a mortgage, due to the subtle rule changes coming in, it will severely hamper anyone applying for a mortgage in the UK who does not earn their wages in £ Sterling.

So if you are paid in US Dollars, or Danish Krona, or even the Euro, you will have a choice of around 4 lenders in the UK to be able to try and get a mortgage from. Before this regulation change there was in excess of 20.

So, How exactly is this change to EU law benefiting the average citizen of the UK, or even any other citizen in Europe???? It's not is the answer,so why the feck have they introduced it?? All part of their 'Ever Closer Union' mantra.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

^^^

I'm voting for you Dave!! :thup:

 

[Ethan]

So the UK doesn't have NICE or the CAA or our own laws to protect against discrimination (Equality Act 2010 for example) and are incapable of dealing with those areas? Nonsense.

It must also have escaped you, but a united Europe is not what has kept the peace since WW2, it is the formation of NATO in 1949 that has lead to that.



.

Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse.

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace.

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.

Oh I don't know about that, I seem to recall quite a few flying around a couple of years ago.....

 

[daverollo]

Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse.

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace.

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.

It is you who misses my point Ethan. As far as regulation of anything within the UK goes, we wouldn't fall flat on our arses because we leave Europe. Suggesting European Regulation, whether that is of the air traffic control (which requires world wide international co-operation) or drugs, or human rights is needed because we are incapable of dealing with these area's ourselves is somewhat condescending.

The 'inners' using the fact we have had peace in Europe since WW2, despite what happened in the Balkens, was as a result of their being an EU is a spurious claim. How can you prove it's a result of their being an EU, equally as my suggestion it was as a result of their being NATO. No proof that either can lay more claim than the other that their actions have lead to peace.

No idea what you mean by Gish Gallop and conspiracy theories, I was attempting to have a civilised discussion about the consequences of leaving the EU and what is happening in the real world right now. What is happening with mortgages is real and happening right now.

 

[MegaSteve]

Dave

The UK does indeed have NICE and the CAA.

However, NICE is not a medicines regulator.

The CAA is not responsible for air traffic control.

Therefore your point falls flat on its arse.

And NATO was to do with Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries rather than internal peace.

Although, well played for your Gish Gallop. This is a well known strategy in conspiracy theory and denier circles, as a way of piling up a list of spurious arguments in place of any rational ones. You don't see many of them round here.

...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...

Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats - we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!

 

[Hacker Khan]

Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats - we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!

I suspect that's part of the attraction to many. Soon change their tune if comrade Corbyn got in though I'd suspect.

 

[MegaSteve]

Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats - we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!

The way I look at it is... That we are already paying heavily for poor governance why do we need to be adding to our pain [at huge expense] allowing the EU to poke its nose in...

 

[delc]

I shall be voting to stay in the EU. This is because it seems to care more about our rights as citizens than the Tory government does, and also to keep my rights to travel around Europe, or even to work or settle in another EU country, should things get really bad here.

 

[SocketRocket]

Except with the marvellous electoral games being played by the current government over boundaries and Union funding of the LP; the current state of the main opposition party; and the willingness of the Tories to cram the Lords with their people to avoid defeats - we look to be in line for 20+yrs of Tory government - jings, crivens, help ma boab!

The current Government were voted in last year to do those things so no point in complaining they are doing them. I expect you think its their fault that labour are such a shambles!

Since when have the Conservatives been cramming the HOL with their people?