EU Referendum

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The current Government were voted in last year to do those things so no point in complaining they are doing them. I expect you think its their fault that labour are so poor!

You really believe that the the electorate voted the Tories in so they could fix the electoral system in their own favour.

And whilst Labour may be poor the Tories seem intent on grinding the LP into the ground and starve them of the funding that any major party needs to recover and become an effective opposition - and interesting that some Tory MPs and peers are thinking that the government is going to far and what they are doing is not at all healthy for our democracy.

David Davis, the former shadow Home Secretary, told The Independent the double hit on Labour was “mean-spirited.” He added: “Whichever party is in government tries to use its power to do down the Opposition. It is borderline immoral. The only way we should do this is by cross-party agreement. This shows that the Tory party does not understand the origins of the Labour Party as the political arm of the trade union movement.”

I do not believe for one moment that the country voted Tory so that we could have a one-party state - and were we to leave EU with the Tories potentially to be in power for the next 20-30yrs - beholden to big business for their own funding - well what relaxing of current EU-based legislation in areas such as employment and environment might that big business seek.

 

[Ethan]

...." but my preference is that we are governed by a UK government that is more readily accountable to the citizens of this country and can be changed every 5 years if need be."


I really like this bit though :thup:...

Voted for, perhaps. Accountable to, you must be kidding.

 

[Ethan]

It is you who misses my point Ethan. As far as regulation of anything within the UK goes, we wouldn't fall flat on our arses because we leave Europe. Suggesting European Regulation, whether that is of the air traffic control (which requires world wide international co-operation) or drugs, or human rights is needed because we are incapable of dealing with these area's ourselves is somewhat condescending.

The 'inners' using the fact we have had peace in Europe since WW2, despite what happened in the Balkens, was as a result of their being an EU is a spurious claim. How can you prove it's a result of their being an EU, equally as my suggestion it was as a result of their being NATO. No proof that either can lay more claim than the other that their actions have lead to peace.

No idea what you mean by Gish Gallop and conspiracy theories, I was attempting to have a civilised discussion about the consequences of leaving the EU and what is happening in the real world right now. What is happening with mortgages is real and happening right now.

I think that was the 'Never mind the facts, I know what I think' strategy.

No real point in trying to break down your arguments.

 

[daverollo]

No real point in trying to break down your arguments.

Then add to the points you made in #99 http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?82642-EU-Referendum&p=1450308&viewfull=1#post1450308

and highlight the real benefits to the UK of remaining within the EU as it is now, preferably demonstrating where the country would be at a real disadvantage by leaving because we'd lose out on something that could not be replaced.

You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.

 

[ColchesterFC]

You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.

Reasoned argument/discussion? You must be new around here. Welcome to the forum. You might find that those things are in short supply around here.

 

[Foxholer]

– If Britain withdrew from the EU it would preserve the benefits of trade with the EU by imposing a UK/EU Free Trade Agreement.
– Moreover, the Lisbon Treaty stipulates that the EU must make a trade agreement with a country which leaves the EU.

– World Trade Organization (WTO) rules lay down basic rules for international trade by which both the EU and UK are obliged to abide. These alone would guarantee the trade upon which we'd use going forward.

21 March 2016 the European Credit Directive comes into force. This is a long winded process to try and unify a common format for applying for mortgages across Europe. The theory being if you arrange a mortgage in Germany, then you will receive the same paperwork as if you have arranged that mortgage in the UK. Common rules across all Europe.

Why is that needed?? It's not, just an example of EU getting mission creap.

Cost: Rough estimates are that for lenders to be changing their systems to accommodate these changes it will cost them in the region of £50m, guess who will be picking that tab up - you the consumer.

Unintended consequences: Instead of making it easier for people to obtain a mortgage, due to the subtle rule changes coming in, it will severely hamper anyone applying for a mortgage in the UK who does not earn their wages in £ Sterling.

So if you are paid in US Dollars, or Danish Krona, or even the Euro, you will have a choice of around 4 lenders in the UK to be able to try and get a mortgage from. Before this regulation change there was in excess of 20.

So, How exactly is this change to EU law benefiting the average citizen of the UK, or even any other citizen in Europe???? It's not is the answer,so why the feck have they introduced it?? All part of their 'Ever Closer Union' mantra.

While much of this seems well reasoned, there appears to be some glaring holes...

The Lisbon Treaty - which was the first time the leaving process was really formalised - does not seem to require a trade agreement! Article 50 only defines the process. Can you point out where the requirement to set up a (free) trade agreement is documented? It also establishes that if no agreement in a nation's exit is settled within 2 years, then they simply no longer belong - thus imposing a sensible time frame on member states imo.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

Can you indicate the proportion of mortgages that fall into the jurisdiction in your example? My thoughts are that it's absolutely tiny. I' still like to see the justification for a 'Common Mortgage' process though!

It's the reduction of bureaucracy (and accountability!) that seems the biggest issue for me, though mission-creep is a concern too. The right wing press do a pretty good job of at least highlighting (scaremongering might be a better description!) most examples.

As for your comments about trade, certainly trade will continue if UK withdraws, but it's the free trade (by default) that will disappear. And UK would have to establish its own bureaucracy to monitor/manage that trade. The lack of the need to do so could well be worth UK's net contribution alone! UK would have to negotiate deals with all the counties currently covered by EC ones and/or join other FTA orgs

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Then add to the points you made in #99 http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?82642-EU-Referendum&p=1450308&viewfull=1#post1450308

and highlight the real benefits to the UK of remaining within the EU as it is now, preferably demonstrating where the country would be at a real disadvantage by leaving because we'd lose out on something that could not be replaced.

You'll tell from my posts I am at least 70% in the out camp, but happy to listen and give consideration to reasoned argument/discussion as to why we should vote to stay.

You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
Scotland and NI are strongly in the 'In' camp, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.

 

[ColchesterFC]

You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
Scotland and NI are strongly in the 'In' camp, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.

How can you possibly believe what any of the polls are saying when they got it so massively wrong during the GE last year?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You mentioned the UK so I assume you are in favour of keeping it together.
Scotland and NI are strongly in the 'In' camp, not sure about Wales. One of the benefits of voting In is to keep the UK the UK.

Not if you believe Paul Nuttall on QT last night - who was clear in stating that the SNP want to leave the EU. Then again you might not believe all that Paul Nuttall says.

 

[ger147]

On the Mortgages European Credit Directive point, the number of foreign currency mortgages may well be very small, but the changes that are required apply to ALL mortgage applications in the UK including those by UK residents for UK property and paid in Sterling.

So the impact is across the entire Mortgage market, not just the Foreign Currency ones.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

It's all unknown in regards leaving the UK

What exactly will happen it appears is guess work

I was listening to the 5 live when the boss of UK Ford was on and he said that it worried them the thought of the U.K. Leaving the EU. He felt that it would have an affect on them but not sure if it would be positive or negative

For me it seems a risk - a big risk maybe ? Is there a possibility that leaving the UK could do more damage than good - if there is a yes that appears to me to be a reason not to leave. Do things need to change in regards the amount of money we put in against what we gain - yes definitely, does there need to be changes to the immigration laws and benefits - yes again but I feel removing ourselves from the UK is a risk that isn't worth taking - in the same way that Scotland believed that removing themselves from UK wasn't a risk worth taking.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

How can you possibly believe what any of the polls are saying when they got it so massively wrong during the GE last year?

That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:

 

[SocketRocket]

Not if you believe Paul Nuttall on QT last night - who was clear in stating that the SNP want to leave the EU. Then again you might not believe all that Paul Nuttall says.

Did he actually say that? All I can remember him saying about the SNP was in reply to a point made to him that if he is against being in the EU why is he a MEP. He replied saying "Why are the SNP in Parliament then"

 

[SocketRocket]

You really believe that the the electorate voted the Tories in so they could fix the electoral system in their own favour.

And whilst Labour may be poor the Tories seem intent on grinding the LP into the ground and starve them of the funding that any major party needs to recover and become an effective opposition - and interesting that some Tory MPs and peers are thinking that the government is going to far and what they are doing is not at all healthy for our democracy.

David Davis, the former shadow Home Secretary, told The Independent the double hit on Labour was “mean-spirited.” He added: “Whichever party is in government tries to use its power to do down the Opposition. It is borderline immoral. The only way we should do this is by cross-party agreement. This shows that the Tory party does not understand the origins of the Labour Party as the political arm of the trade union movement.”

I do not believe for one moment that the country voted Tory so that we could have a one-party state - and were we to leave EU with the Tories potentially to be in power for the next 20-30yrs - beholden to big business for their own funding - well what relaxing of current EU-based legislation in areas such as employment and environment might that big business seek.

Yes, they made a commitment to change the electoral boundaries to make them less favourable to Labour. The Conservatives are currently disadvantaged by electoral boundaries.

Labour should not get levies from Union members that have not 'opted in'. Period.

It's a job for the other parties to stop the Conservatives from staying in power for 30 years. Currently Labour are doing a very good job to guarantee they do.

 

[SocketRocket]

That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:

And in the Scottish Referendum.

 

[Hobbit]

That did appear to be a one off, caused by people tooooo embarrassed to tell the pollsters that they were voting Tory.:lol:

And in the Scottish Referendum.

They were too frightened to say they were voting no to independence for fear of being beaten up by people with blue faces

 

[Hacker Khan]

It's all unknown in regards leaving the UK

What exactly will happen it appears is guess work

I was listening to the 5 live when the boss of UK Ford was on and he said that it worried them the thought of the U.K. Leaving the EU. He felt that it would have an affect on them but not sure if it would be positive or negative

For me it seems a risk - a big risk maybe ? Is there a possibility that leaving the UK could do more damage than good - if there is a yes that appears to me to be a reason not to leave. Do things need to change in regards the amount of money we put in against what we gain - yes definitely, does there need to be changes to the immigration laws and benefits - yes again but I feel removing ourselves from the UK is a risk that isn't worth taking - in the same way that Scotland believed that removing themselves from UK wasn't a risk worth taking.

I agree that if course it is guess work and you can probably get someone to say what you want them to say on both sides as that's the way society is nowadays. But were you listening to the same interview I heard? He said that easy access to the European market (or words to that effect, can't remember the exact words) were very important to Ford. So I assumed that as I guess there is some corporate dictat in Ford to not state on opinion directly, he was spelling out Ford's opinion in another way that made it clear, without actually saying it.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I agree that if course it is guess work and you can probably get someone to say what you want them to say on both sides as that's the way society is nowadays. But were you listening to the same interview I heard? He said that easy access to the European market (or words to that effect, can't remember the exact words) were very important to Ford. So I assumed that as I guess there is some corporate dictat in Ford to not state on opinion directly, he was spelling out Ford's opinion in another way that made it clear, without actually saying it.

Yes that was the very same interview

 

[MegaSteve]

To the best of my knowledge business 'leaders' have the same amount of voting 'power' as everyone else...

Also. like everyone else they have an opinion and that's it... An opinion... Nothing more nothing less...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

And in the Scottish Referendum.

If you put your thunking cap on you will remember that the Scottish referendum polls were virtually spot on, only one poll predicted a Yes win and only for a few days.
Most predicted a rise in yes votes [33% to 45%] and most predicted a close result.[5% swing difference]