Equal Pay for Equal Work

[Mudball]

Very interesting conversation today... Company has 2 salesguys.. one (A) who worked his way up and now sales guy. A couple of years ago, they hired another sales guy (B) from competition. Obviously they paid 'market rate' for B. They both carry the same sales target and sell the same things to fairly similar markets. There is no difference in what they do. only difference is A has been around for some time and now there is big pay gap between the two.

Someone pointed out that the Company may be flouting the Equality Act. tbh, (in my naivety) I never think about the equality act unless there is gender or race involved. Does the equality act apply when there are (sorry to say) 2 middle aged white blokes involved? I am assuming the answer is yes.
what kind of justification can the Company give for keeping this disparity. I am sure there are nuances to this case, but I am only hearing it second hand.


PS: I looked at the ACAS website, and i suppose I am right >> https://www.acas.org.uk/equal-pay/equal-pay-law

 

[Neilds]

The link you have posted doesn't help your argument. It states that someone should not get different pay if they are both the opposite sex and doing the same job. As your example are both the same sex then it doesn't apply

 

[Mudball]

The link you have posted doesn't help your argument. It states that someone should not get different pay if they are both the opposite sex and doing the same job. As your example are both the same sex then it doesn't apply

I am no legal expert, but i would have thought, irrespective of gender i.e. different genders, same gender, no gender etc. I might have to read it again when i get time.

 

[Swango1980]

I found:

Can a company pay different wages for the same job?
It is legal for a company to pay different wages for the same or similar job, but only if there are non-discriminatory material factors which explain the reason for the difference.

Question is, what would a non-discriminatory factor be? If is is simply based on years experience in the job, could that be discriminating against the less experienced?

 

[Neilds]

I am no legal expert, but i would have thought, irrespective of gender i.e. different genders, same gender, no gender etc. I might have to read it again when i get time.

See top of document:

This means someone must not get less pay compared to someone who is both:

• the opposite sex
• doing equal work for the same employer

 

[Neilds]

This issue highlights why a lot of companies have rules about employees not disclosing their salary. It has nothing to do with equality or discrimination though. When guy B joined Mudball's company, maybe there was a desperate need to attract the right person with the right qualifications, etc so the company paid a higher rate to attract B. It may not seem right to some people, particularly Guy A but it is not illegal.

 

[Grizzly]

I found:

Can a company pay different wages for the same job?
It is legal for a company to pay different wages for the same or similar job, but only if there are non-discriminatory material factors which explain the reason for the difference.

Question is, what would a non-discriminatory factor be? If is is simply based on years experience in the job, could that be discriminating against the less experienced?

So, in this instance the question would be when person (B) has the same level of service, will his pay be the same as person (A) in keeping with the companies policies (ie whether person (A) gets marked time arrangements on promotion).

 

[Neilds]

So, in this instance the question would be when person (B) has the same level of service, will his pay be the same as person (A) in keeping with the companies policies (ie whether person (A) gets marked time arrangements on promotion).

You can only discriminate against a protected characteristic and length of service is not one

• age
• gender reassignment
• being married or in a civil partnership
• being pregnant or on maternity leave
• disability
• race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

 

[adam6177]

One reason could be that A only has 5 years experience and that B has 15 years.... So in theory has more expertise to offer the position.

 

[Mudball]

One reason could be that A only has 5 years experience and that B has 15 years.... So in theory has more expertise to offer the position.

Not my company, so i dont know the details.. i am being told that both are similar 18-20 years exprience.. A has done 5-6 years in Company, while B joined from outside. I think the bone of contention here is two bits..
1) Equal Pay... what i am here is that it may be ok
2) Equal work.. currently both have same targets... can you get different pay if you have the same sales targets.

 

[Neilds]

Not my company, so i dont know the details.. i am being told that both are similar 18-20 years exprience.. A has done 5-6 years in Company, while B joined from outside. I think the bone of contention here is two bits..
1) Equal Pay... what i am here is that it may be ok
2) Equal work.. currently both have same targets... can you get different pay if you have the same sales targets.

Yes you can, as long as you are both in the same categories of protected characteristics. The reasons for the different pay can be varied, as they joined the company at different times under different contracts. It may not be fair but it is not illegal - totally different things.

 

[SocketRocket]

2) Equal work.. currently both have same targets... can you get different pay if you have the same sales targets.

Yes if the pay is performance based. Often Salespeople are paid comission based on performance.

 

[Mudball]

i learnt a few new things today... my key learning.. if both are blokes then... equal pay for equal work (sales targets); else while it may be unfair, it is legal to have differing pay.

ps: I dont like the idea that it specifically rules out equality pay if both are of the same gender

 

[adam6177]

Not my company, so i dont know the details.. i am being told that both are similar 18-20 years exprience.. A has done 5-6 years in Company, while B joined from outside. I think the bone of contention here is two bits..
1) Equal Pay... what i am here is that it may be ok
2) Equal work.. currently both have same targets... can you get different pay if you have the same sales targets.

Maybe it changes industry to industry or job role types.... But for me having vastly different wages for staff doing same/similar roles is normal depending on performance and experience.

I have 3 guys on my team (financial operations in London) that age from 24-35 and all roughly do the same job. Wages range from 35-55k a year.

And to me, that's totally normal and what I've always known.

 

[Mudball]

Maybe it changes industry to industry or job role types.... But for me having vastly different wages for staff doing same/similar roles is normal depending on performance and experience.

I have 3 guys on my team (financial operations in London) that age from 24-35 and all roughly do the same job. Wages range from 35-55k a year.

And to me, that's totally normal and what I've always known.

I am with you.. or maybe its London. In your case, there is 10 gap in experience, so you could justify. My interest in this case picked up since i heard both are guys, have similar experience levels and have same sales targets. I never asked about commissions, but i am told that there is a big gap in base pay.

I am assuming that all these stories are coming out in the wash due to the cost of living challenges and everyone looking behind their sofas

 

[Fade and Die]

I am with you.. or maybe its London. In your case, there is 10 gap in experience, so you could justify. My interest in this case picked up since i heard both are guys, have similar experience levels and have same sales targets. I never asked about commissions, but i am told that there is a big gap in base pay.

I am assuming that all these stories are coming out in the wash due to the cost of living challenges and everyone looking behind their sofas

But if the guy on less money started to identify as a woman would they have to pay him the same?

 

[Grizzly]

You can only discriminate against a protected characteristic and length of service is not one

• age
• gender reassignment
• being married or in a civil partnership
• being pregnant or on maternity leave
• disability
• race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
• religion or belief
• sex
• sexual orientation

Correct, though we lost an ET last year in not hugely dissimilar circumstances because we could not evidence that our equivalent persons A and B would be at the same point once service was accounted for, which the Panel took to equate to age discrimination. It was not financially worth contesting the decision in the grand scheme of things!

 

[SocketRocket]

I am with you.. or maybe its London. In your case, there is 10 gap in experience, so you could justify. My interest in this case picked up since i heard both are guys, have similar experience levels and have same sales targets. I never asked about commissions, but i am told that there is a big gap in base pay.

I am assuming that all these stories are coming out in the wash due to the cost of living challenges and everyone looking behind their sofas

Sales targets are not sales. I guess these guys are paid partly on sales commission. Are their actual sales similar?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If guy A was perfectly happy with his remuneration then what guy B gets on joining doesn’t matter much. If guy A was not happy with his existing and he has been asking, then he can ask the question again. But truth is perhaps the expectations and pressures put on guy B to deliver will be higher than those on guy A, the company knows A delivers and so let him get on with it, B could be under very different and continual scrutiny.

 

[Crazyface]

I've always hated working at companies where you don't know what people at getting paid and they are doing the same job. I found that if they were recruited from outside they got paid more. If they were an internal promotion, then less.