England (Youth) Football

[Lord Tyrion]

In 1990 and 96 England went out of competitions with pride. They gave it a go and there was no shame in how they went out. Since then the exits have become progressively more embarrassing. I can handle losing, understand we are not the best but blimey I want them to give it a go and for players to come close to replicating their league form. That is not asking much.

Someone made a great point earlier. The current batch of juniors are being taught to be comfortable on the ball from an early stage. All players up to U21 level could be put in a Dutch, German or French shirt and you would not know the difference. You could not say that about most of our full internationals. Hopefully that generation and onwards will begin to filter through and no longer will we have to put up with a central midfielder who bounces the ball off them instead of controlling it. I know it is corny to say "the next world cup" but after Russia more and more of this new generation will hopefully start to come in and we will see a difference, including a winning tournament mentality.

 

[Patster1969]

Half the issue has been the contracts that some of these kids get, so they feel that they have made it at 19 and then don't have to try that hard after that.

The other issue that has been mentioned is the fear of putting them in (as Koeman has found out) instead of the relatively cheaper foreign international import. The majority of teams are playing not to lose these days instead of trying to win

 

[Deleted member 15344]

What doesn’t help is when these u21 tournaments come around and the players that have hit the main teams don’t go - for example Rashford etc this summer should have gone away to the tourney instead of playing in the full squad - it gives them Tournament experience.

Teams like Germany , Spain , France , Italy always send their best players of that age group regardless of if they play for main squad.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

What doesn’t help is when these u21 tournaments come around and the players that have hit the main teams don’t go - for example Rashford etc this summer should have gone away to the tourney instead of playing in the full squad - it gives them Tournament experience.

Teams like Germany , Spain , France , Italy always send their best players of that age group regardless of if they play for main squad.

Well said LP. It is that experience of being at tournaments and winning at tournaments that the full team lacks.

 

[Fish]

What doesn’t help is when these u21 tournaments come around and the players that have hit the main teams don’t go - for example Rashford etc this summer should have gone away to the tourney instead of playing in the full squad - it gives them Tournament experience.

Teams like Germany , Spain , France , Italy always send their best players of that age group regardless of if they play for main squad.

Some have gone in the past, Butland, Kane, Stones Chambers and possibly some more have fluttered back & forth.

If the tournaments clash to a degree then I suppose the managers of their home team may ask them to make a choice so as not to risk injury and only play only for 1 squad whilst taking a break before the main season and pre season starts again.

The problem is, if the player is good enough to step up to the senior side and we are weak in strength in the senior side and need him, it could be detrimental to the players fitness to have him play for his U21's/U17's etc also!

I'm sure if a top player like Rashford suddenly wasn't available for the first month of a season because he was playing for both squads in summer tournaments fans would then be screaming he should only pick 1 and reduce his game time?

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't!

 

[Beezerk]

In 1990 and 96 England went out of competitions with pride.

We had Gazza in both those teams though, THE best player ever to pull on an England shirt, plus he had top quality players around him, Waddle, Beardsley, Lineker, Barnes, Shearer, Anderton, Sheringham etc.
Who have we had since? Beckham, erm.....Henderson
Worst quote by an English footballer commentator ever "defenders hate pace" grates my nuts.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Some have gone in the past, Butland, Kane, Stones Chambers and possibly some more have fluttered back & forth.

If the tournaments clash to a degree then I suppose the managers of their home team may ask them to make a choice so as not to risk injury and only play only for 1 squad whilst taking a break before the main season and pre season starts again.

The problem is, if the player is good enough to step up to the senior side and we are weak in strength in the senior side and need him, it could be detrimental to the players fitness to have him play for his U21's/U17's etc also!

I'm sure if a top player like Rashford suddenly wasn't available for the first month of a season because he was playing for both squads in summer tournaments fans would then be screaming he should only pick 1 and reduce his game time?

Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't!

The tournaments very rarely clash - especially the big ones , there was no tournament this summer for the main squad but lots of junior ones that players like Rashford etc could go - but they don’t , rare that any English player that is part of the main squad goes away with the U21 to Tournaments - they see it as some sort of demotion and it’s happened for years - Kane is prob the only one but it was before he established himself . No other nation sees it that way , they see it as part of the players development to get the tournament experience under their belts - players like Mata and Thiago were first team players for club and country but both went away to the Euro U21 , Germany have done it as well with players like Gotze , Draxler - so when these players play in the World Cups and Euros they have experience under their belt - even more so if they win - no better feeling.

 

[pbrown7582]

I think once a player is established in the senior side they shouldn't then go and play tournaments in the junior sides, just to win they have developed beyond that level by playing for the senior side so let others continue to develop in the junior sides.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think once a player is established in the senior side they shouldn't then go and play tournaments in the junior sides, just to win they have developed beyond that level by playing for the senior side so let others continue to develop in the junior sides.

Teams that compete very well and indeed win major tournaments don’t see it that way - the proof is in their results

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Being at a tournament is not just about playing matches, it's about dealing with the down time, the press, build up to match after match. The whole environment is different to regular matches. That is why players should go, so they get used to handling that situation.

 

[Fish]

Being at a tournament is not just about playing matches, it's about dealing with the down time, the press, build up to match after match. The whole environment is different to regular matches. That is why players should go, so they get used to handling that situation.

But if the player is already experiencing that in the senior side what does it offer extra by doing it in the U21's also?

 

[USER1999]

They might win something. Could be the only national medal they ever get. Worth having in my view.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

But if the player is already experiencing that in the senior side what does it offer extra by doing it in the U21's also?

The U21's are doing it successfully so something can be learned there. There is an air of positivity around the U'21 and other sections, something to be gained from being around that.

The seniors go to tournaments every 2 years, hopefully. The other sections tend to have tournaments inbetween.

They can also go to a U'17, U19, U'21 tournament away from the uber intensive glare of the press. They can get used to tournament life in a more relaxed way so that when they go to the main tournaments they have better skills to cope with it.

Young players not going to their own tournaments has not worked for England. It seems to have worked for Spain and Germany. Worth trying isn't it, what is there to lose?

 

[Fish]

The U21's are doing it successfully so something can be learned there. There is an air of positivity around the U'21 and other sections, something to be gained from being around that.

The seniors go to tournaments every 2 years, hopefully. The other sections tend to have tournaments inbetween.

They can also go to a U'17, U19, U'21 tournament away from the uber intensive glare of the press. They can get used to tournament life in a more relaxed way so that when they go to the main tournaments they have better skills to cope with it.

Young players not going to their own tournaments has not worked for England. It seems to have worked for Spain and Germany. Worth trying isn't it, what is there to lose?

But if they are still under 21 and are now playing for the senior side surely they've recently gone through all that so what's more to learn? They've already played through all the youth ages and have now stepped up to the senior.

I don't get what else they could learn when they've only just recently stepped up!

 

[pbrown7582]

But if they are still under 21 and are now playing for the senior side surely they've recently gone through all that so what's more to learn? They've already played through all the youth ages and have now stepped up to the senior.

I don't get what else they could learn when they've only just recently stepped up!

I don't think it comes down to the actual learning the calls for senior players to play U21 comes down to wanting to try and win a international tournament

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Some don't go through the youth ages, they may be late bloomers. They may be, in pro terms, average at U'17 but dynamite by the time they are 20. The U'21's may be their first taste of int football.

I also think winning is a habit and can be a mentality thing. Too many full internationals pull on the shirt with an average expectation of winning. Get them used to winning at junior level and they can hold onto that mentality. The U'17 / 19 and 21's have all won in an England shirt. None of the seniors know that feeling. In club terms the attitude of a player at West Brom is different to one at Chelsea. One hopes to win, one expects to win.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

But if they are still under 21 and are now playing for the senior side surely they've recently gone through all that so what's more to learn? They've already played through all the youth ages and have now stepped up to the senior.

I don't get what else they could learn when they've only just recently stepped up!

Marcus Rashford played one U21 game - and only 2 U19 games

All the nations that have won either the WC and Euros over the past decade or so ensure that young players are given as much tournament experience as possible and even more so a winning expirence - why would it not be a method to consider when it’s shown to provide a great foundation

Pirlo , Fabregas , Pogba , Greizman , Xavi , Mata , Ballack , Neuer , Ozil , Gotze - the list is endless of players who went to U21 tournaments regardless of being in the Senior squad.

 

[Fish]

Marcus Rashford played one U21 game - and only 2 U19 games

All the nations that have won either the WC and Euros over the past decade or so ensure that young players are given as much tournament experience as possible and even more so a winning expirence - why would it not be a method to consider when it’s shown to provide a great foundation

Pirlo , Fabregas , Pogba , Greizman , Xavi , Mata , Ballack , Neuer , Ozil , Gotze - the list is endless of players who went to U21 tournaments regardless of being in the Senior squad.

So how many have we got other than Rashford that play with/in the senior team and are still ellidgable to play in the U21’s?

If it’s only Rashford then that ship has sailed already because as has been stated, the current Youth teams are head & shoulders above the senior squad in many areas of their game and general approach!

So this next batch of Youth players should be a huge improvement to what we’ve had to endure over the years once they all step up, but, will they stay at the top clubs and carry on being developed or will they move on and although have a lot of Youth international experience, never step up to the big time?

Why was Rashford so overlooked in the youth squads but is now supposed to be an excellent prospect for Club & country, surely by the same token the reverse can be an option and many of the current Youth internationals, just like Club Youth stars just don’t make the transisition and the gulf is bigger than we can imagine.

And with that I think the gulf between the Youth and seniors needs closing, in that they should watch each other’s tournaments, be around each other all the time when on international duties, have a common plan and directive because whatever the youths are being taught currently isn’t being taught to the seniors, so it looks like we don’t have any continuity, which causes these gulfs so when a Youth steps up to the seniors, he’s dragged down to their level and is stifled by draconian tactics.

Unless a load of these U21’s all come up together like the Utd lads did in the early 90’s, nothing will change imo, there’s too much emphasis on experience even though many of them are pish poor and the Youth U21’s would probably hammer the seniors currently.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

So how many have we got other than Rashford that play with/in the senior team and are still ellidgable to play in the U21’s?

If it’s only Rashford then that ship has sailed already because as has been stated, the current Youth teams are head & shoulders above the senior squad in many areas of their game and general approach!

So this next batch of Youth players should be a huge improvement to what we’ve had to endure over the years once they all step up, but, will they stay at the top clubs and carry on being developed or will they move on and although have a lot of Youth international experience, never step up to the big time?

Why was Rashford so overlooked in the youth squads but is now supposed to be an excellent prospect for Club & country, surely by the same token the reverse can be an option and many of the current Youth internationals, just like Club Youth stars just don’t make the transisition and the gulf is bigger than we can imagine.

And with that I think the gulf between the Youth and seniors needs closing, in that they should watch each other’s tournaments, be around each other all the time when on international duties, have a common plan and directive because whatever the youths are being taught currently isn’t being taught to the seniors, so it looks like we don’t have any continuity, which causes these gulfs so when a Youth steps up to the seniors, he’s dragged down to their level and is stifled by draconian tactics.

Unless a load of these U21’s all come up together like the Utd lads did in the early 90’s, nothing will change imo, there’s too much emphasis on experience even though many of them are pish poor and the Youth U21’s would probably hammer the seniors currently.

Players who could have played in the U21 Comp

Pickford - played
Stones
Winks - might have played
Dier
Alli
Rashford
Sterling
Shaw - might have been injured

Rashford will still be eligible for the next one as well and he should go - same with anyone else who is eligible

Not sure what the clubs have to do with but it all misses the point

Other nations players who are still eligible to play in the U21’s but are also in the Senior team have no issues moving between the two teams depending on the status of the Comp - all the nations that have won or got to finals of major comps have no problems sending them to U21 comps - so why can’t England follow the same model

There is the old scenario of when Germany played England in the U21 final - Germany won - in the WC of 2014 which they won - I believe it was 8 of the players who played in that final where in the Germany WC squad with 6 playing the Final. England had one player from that Final who was in the Squad.

Our U21 teams have been successful for a long time - the issue that has been is zero pathway to the main team - believe that’s changing with Southgate a little but the pathway still needs to go both ways and if an eligible player can go to U21 then he should and it shouldn’t be deemed as any sort of demotion it should be all part of the learning curve.

I suspect England will continue to thrive at Youth level up to U21 but after that they will still struggle - teams in the Prem especially the top teams won’t play them , wont take the risk on them over sustained periods of time so these players won’t be getting playing time at the highest level including the CL.

If England would like to succeed at International level then I suspect player quotas would need to be introduced in regards how many English players need to be in match day squads etc

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Scott Loach
Martin Crainie
Micah Richards
Nedum Onuhoa
Kieran Gibbs
Fabrice Muamba
Lee Cattermole
Mark Noble
James Milner
Adam Johnson
Theo Walcott

That’s the England starting XI for the 2009 final against Germany, most will recognise 99%.

Some of them simply not good enough to make the Senior Squad,

The German team had 1 guy who chose Poland, 1 chose the USA and one made his senior debut this year.