Cyclist and highway code

[greenone]

If you want to make cycling & walking safer, then the quickest & most direct way to influence it is to take the most vulnerable out of danger, rather than give them easier access to an insurance claim after the accident.

The best way to do this is indeed exchanging places, make all drivers cycle and walk as part of driver training.

 

[4LEX]

As a former cyclist and keen motorist I see both sides on this.

The bottom line is cycling is incredibly dangerous these days, through a mixture of cyclists general arrogance and motorists short fuses. I decided to stop cycling on roads which was a shame but after a few near misses and some pretty nasty road rage incidents, I realised it was for the best. The death toll might be 140 but with the ratio of bikes to cars on the road I'd wager you've got a much higher chance of being killed on a bike per mile travelled!

 

[Griffsters]

If the person in a vehicle is "behaving like an arse" then there already laws in place that deal with that sort of person after the incident. And if that sort of person is prepared to "drive like an arse" with laws already in place to deal with them then this change will likely make little or no change to their attitude.

What this proposal does, if it becomes law, is make those "not behaving like an arse" liable for the accident, regardless of the fact they have done nothing wrong, unless they can prove otherwise. It doesn't better align the burden of proof; it turns the presumption of innocence, a basic tenet of English law, on it's head. That's a little more than a change in my book.

What changed my mind on this is realisation of how hard it is for victims to obtain justice. Lets ignore cyclists for a minute and think of pedestrians as we can all relate to that. Every year thousands are killed or seriously injured due to negligent drivers. Access to any justice means a long and very expensive process through the courts, against the behemoths that are the insurance companies. The insurance companies fight like hell, not for justice but to minimise their pay outs.

There is an enormous responsibility driving a vehicle, they are quite literally guided missiles. Pedestrians and cyclists much less so, our system needs to reflect this IMHO.

If you want to drive a car in this country, you have to obtain a provisional licence, pass a theory test & then a practical test. If you want to ride a motorcycle you have to undertake CBT, pass a theory test & pass a practical test. For PCV's & HGV's it's a medical (and ongoing regular medical tests), a theory test and a practical test; two practical tests for articulated vehicles, and a certificate of professional competence requiring ongoing training. And to ride a pedal cycle? Absolutely nothing; just buy a bike & off you go. Pedestrians; even less, just hope their parents or guardians did a good job.

Is the best way to protect our vulnerable road users installing presumed liability, or would a bit of compulsory training not go amiss? To identify the dangers and to attempt to keep them away from them, rather than give them a payout on the basis of presumed liability afterwards? How many of the cyclists on here have heard of the Exchanging Places programme; and of those, how many have undertaken one? It's an eye opener, quite literally. And if anyone has undertaken one, does the mat involved remind you of anything you've seen on the road...

That's not to say that driver training could not be improved, and shouldn't involve some ongoing retesting, but the ones with the most to gain in terms of safety and the most to lose in terms of injury should surely be the starting point. If you want to make cycling & walking safer, then the quickest & most direct way to influence it is to take the most vulnerable out of danger, rather than give them easier access to an insurance claim after the accident.

There is good reason why drivers need to take such tests, they are the ones causing death and injury. Vulnerable road users are massively and overwhelmingly the non-fault victims in all this, no matter what perceptions are that it is the reality. I recall a flurry of deaths in London of cyclists a few years ago and the overwhelming media coverage was one of reckless cyclists. Reality was that almost all were due to driver negligence of some description.

So, IMHO you have it the wrong way round. I'd rather not blame the victims here in the same way we shouldn't be asking women to cover themselves up to not get abused. It's a similar principle.

There are other points as well, such as most adult cyclists are also drivers with a licence. More pedestrians are killed on pavements by cars than are injured by cyclists. Its not peds / cyclist that need to be targeted with anything other than already in place.

The important part for me is that what resources there are should go towards educating and training those who cause most damage - that is those driving vehicles.

Anyway, off to play golf - can't be here all day!

 

[clubchamp98]

As a former cyclist and keen motorist I see both sides on this.

The bottom line is cycling is incredibly dangerous these days, through a mixture of cyclists general arrogance and motorists short fuses. I decided to stop cycling on roads which was a shame but after a few near misses and some pretty nasty road rage incidents, I realised it was for the best. The death toll might be 140 but with the ratio of bikes to cars on the road I'd wager you've got a much higher chance of being killed on a bike per mile travelled!

Yes I have stopped cycling on the roads for a while now.
My biggest worry is cars don’t give you enough room.
By me a major road was refurbished but the grids were not raised to the new level.
This creates a huge hole for any cyclist to avoid at all costs as they can bring you down right in front of the traffic.
Some dick accused me of swerving in front of him.
When I explained “ if you get out of your car I will show you why I moved 18” off my line “
He declined !
Like most he’s only brave when in his car.
It’s why I always give cyclists a wide berth, they need room pot holes ,grids etc.
It takes 10 seconds or so but some don’t seem to have that time

 

[AmandaJR]

The kids are taught two riding positions - sharing and control (confusingly named secondary and primary in the booklet they get after the course). Sharing is where they are happy to share their space (lane) with other road users but not positioned too close to the kerb. Control is the middle of their lane meaning any vehicle wanting to overtake would have to be sure the other lane is clear before doing so. Usually control is used whenever the rider is about to negotiate a junction - even if passing a side road. I tend to use that position much more these days as it stops cars squeezing by and also gives some wriggle room for those getting too close. I don't ride on busy roads but do occasionally get the finger when an impatient driver overtakes but really don't care as the fact they had to wait and not squeeze me has made it safer for me.

 

[Blue in Munich]

The kids are taught two riding positions - sharing and control (confusingly named secondary and primary in the booklet they get after the course). Sharing is where they are happy to share their space (lane) with other road users but not positioned too close to the kerb. Control is the middle of their lane meaning any vehicle wanting to overtake would have to be sure the other lane is clear before doing so. Usually control is used whenever the rider is about to negotiate a junction - even if passing a side road. I tend to use that position much more these days as it stops cars squeezing by and also gives some wriggle room for those getting too close. I don't ride on busy roads but do occasionally get the finger when an impatient driver overtakes but really don't care as the fact they had to wait and not squeeze me has made it safer for me.

Amanda, as an instructor do you get your pupils to do an Exchanging Places course, and are cyclists encouraged to use courtesy signals when motorists wait then pass correctly?

 

[AmandaJR]

Amanda, as an instructor do you get your pupils to do an Exchanging Places course, and are cyclists encouraged to use courtesy signals when motorists wait then pass correctly?

They're only 10 By courtesy signals do you mean signalling their intent to turn? In which case then yes they are taught if there is another road user present then you let them know where you're going - including when they pull into the side of the road. The first day is in the playground and any that can't ride one handed and, therefore, signal can't come out on the roads for days 2-4.

 

[Blue in Munich]

They're only 10 .

Ah, didn't realise they were that young, although it's a danger worth teaching at any age in my opinion (maybe less relevant to you if you are rural though).

By courtesy signals do you mean signalling their intent to turn? In which case then yes they are taught if there is another road user present then you let them know where you're going - including when they pull into the side of the road. The first day is in the playground and any that can't ride one handed and, therefore, signal can't come out on the roads for days 2-4.

No, I was meaning the raise of the hand given to thank someone when they have given you right of way or otherwise extended a courtesy. We often get horse riders out where I ride the motorcycle. See them, shut the throttle, tap it down to 1st gear and go past on tickover. I've never failed to get a thank you wave and normally a smile as well. Sit well back of a cyclist effectively defending them, then pass with a wide berth when safe to do so, can't ever remember seeing one. Just wondered if it was something that's taught, but possibly not relevant given the ages?

 

[AmandaJR]

We do teach a hand raise to say thanks but it's not part of the formal training and certainly not when being overtaken as both hands on the bars required. Usually it's when a nice motorist sees a kid in a high viz and stops to give way. We teach them to call them on and raise a hand to say thank you. They love doing it too!

 

[pendodave]

Ah, didn't realise they were that young, although it's a danger worth teaching at any age in my opinion (maybe less relevant to you if you are rural though).



No, I was meaning the raise of the hand given to thank someone when they have given you right of way or otherwise extended a courtesy. We often get horse riders out where I ride the motorcycle. See them, shut the throttle, tap it down to 1st gear and go past on tickover. I've never failed to get a thank you wave and normally a smile as well. Sit well back of a cyclist effectively defending them, then pass with a wide berth when safe to do so, can't ever remember seeing one. Just wondered if it was something that's taught, but possibly not relevant given the ages?

When I'm out on my bike, I always acknowledge considerate driving if it's safe to do so. It's nice to do it, and maybe it makes it more likely that it'll happen again. I also try and make it as easy as possible for drivers to pass. I don't regard the confrontational approach between road users as a good thing. Cheerful coexistence seems a better way than the deep seated bitterness that seems to lurk beneath the surface of so many interactions.

 

[patricks148]

I just won't ride on the road any longer, unless it's absolutely necessary, I stick to cycle paths and pavment, which the council have deemed shares spaces in a bid to encourage cycling. Up until 2006 I still did a fair bit of road riding, but the standard of driving up here is poor to say the least. Had a few near misses where cars clipped me and the final nail was some Herbert in a suped up noddy car came around a corner up the back of Stathglas, on the wrong side of the road and onlyissed me by inches. Stark contrast to the riding I've done in Europe, France and Italy in particular, who on the whole treat cyclists with respect.

 

[Imurg]

I just won't ride on the road any longer, unless it's absolutely necessary, I stick to cycle paths and pavment, which the council have deemed shares spaces in a bid to encourage cycling. Up until 2006 I still did a fair bit of road riding, but the standard of driving up here is poor to say the least. Had a few near misses where cars clipped me and the final nail was some Herbert in a suped up noddy car came around a corner up the back of Stathglas, on the wrong side of the road and onlyissed me by inches. Stark contrast to the riding I've done in Europe, France and Italy in particular, who on the whole treat cyclists with respect.

In order to treat pedestrians and cyclists with respect, car and lorry drivers need to treat each other with respect and I see precious little of that these days.
Everyone needs to respect everyone else's position..until that happens nothing will improve.

 

[ExRabbit]

I used to ride my bike a lot - often to the golf club along a busy main road.

I doubt I'll ever ride on busy roads again - and part of the reason is that so many people are on their phones whilst driving.

I often walk to a local supermarket along that busy road, and check out the drivers for something to do. How many are on their phones is truly horrifying.

Also, the number of (mostly younger) cyclists who are on their phones is pretty worrying too.

 

[greenone]

In order to treat pedestrians and cyclists with respect, car and lorry drivers need to treat each other with respect and I see precious little of that these days.
Everyone needs to respect everyone else's position..until that happens nothing will improve.

That's what happens when all the traffic policing is done by speed cameras.

 

[Cake]

The kids are taught two riding positions - sharing and control (confusingly named secondary and primary in the booklet they get after the course). Sharing is where they are happy to share their space (lane) with other road users but not positioned too close to the kerb. Control is the middle of their lane meaning any vehicle wanting to overtake would have to be sure the other lane is clear before doing so. Usually control is used whenever the rider is about to negotiate a junction - even if passing a side road. I tend to use that position much more these days as it stops cars squeezing by and also gives some wriggle room for those getting too close. I don't ride on busy roads but do occasionally get the finger when an impatient driver overtakes but really don't care as the fact they had to wait and not squeeze me has made it safer for me.

This approach is ‘vehicular cycling’ from Cyclecraft, isn’t it? That book changed my perception of how to get about on a bike completely - from being relatively passive to taking control/responsibility for managing the situations I find myself in on the road (though that is not the same as accepting responsibility for any incidents that occur).

As the more vulnerable party in any interaction with a car/van/truck etc I use the Primary position to try to manage them overtaking me to when I believe it to be safe (for all of us, not just me), not so much when the driver thinks it might be.

I’m really pleased it is being taught to kids.

 

[AmandaJR]

This approach is ‘vehicular cycling’ from Cyclecraft, isn’t it? That book changed my perception of how to get about on a bike completely - from being relatively passive to taking control/responsibility for managing the situations I find myself in on the road (though that is not the same as accepting responsibility for any incidents that occur).

As the more vulnerable party in any interaction with a car/van/truck etc I use the Primary position to try to manage them overtaking me to when I believe it to be safe (for all of us, not just me), not so much when the driver thinks it might be.

I’m really pleased it is being taught to kids.

Yes it is from Cyclecraft and during my training it completely changed my attitude when cycling on roads. I'm more confident about controlling my space and being seen rather than tucking in to the side. The kids do struggle with Primary at first but the first time they are in it and control the traffic around them is quite the eureka moment for them.

 

[Griffsters]

As the more vulnerable party in any interaction with a car/van/truck etc I use the Primary position to try to manage them overtaking me to when I believe it to be safe (for all of us, not just me), not so much when the driver thinks it might be.

I’m really pleased it is being taught to kids.

Absolutely. Be assertive and take control at squeeze points and junctions, or other situations when in danger. Many drivers bully their way through traffic and their minds need making up for them, simple as that. Problem is many in their ignorance see this as aggressive and somehow removing their perceived right of way on the road - hence road rage. Courtesy works both ways tho - no need to stay in primary longer than necessary.

 

[Griffsters]

Ah, didn't realise they were that young, although it's a danger worth teaching at any age in my opinion (maybe less relevant to you if you are rural though).



No, I was meaning the raise of the hand given to thank someone when they have given you right of way or otherwise extended a courtesy. We often get horse riders out where I ride the motorcycle. See them, shut the throttle, tap it down to 1st gear and go past on tickover. I've never failed to get a thank you wave and normally a smile as well. Sit well back of a cyclist effectively defending them, then pass with a wide berth when safe to do so, can't ever remember seeing one. Just wondered if it was something that's taught, but possibly not relevant given the ages?

This is actually quite telling.

You actually expect someone to thank you for for doing what you should be doing anyway, seriously?

Oh and btw, yes I've given and received many many 'little waves' of thanks from cyclists and drivers alike for just doing the decent thing. I've also been completely ignored by many people on cycles, horses and in cars. It about people not their mode of transport.

 

[clubchamp98]

This approach is ‘vehicular cycling’ from Cyclecraft, isn’t it? That book changed my perception of how to get about on a bike completely - from being relatively passive to taking control/responsibility for managing the situations I find myself in on the road (though that is not the same as accepting responsibility for any incidents that occur).

As the more vulnerable party in any interaction with a car/van/truck etc I use the Primary position to try to manage them overtaking me to when I believe it to be safe (for all of us, not just me), not so much when the driver thinks it might be.

I’m really pleased it is being taught to kids.

Spot on .
But unfortunately most drivers don’t know about it.
Genuine question are drivers taught how to behave when overtaking cyclists.

 

[clubchamp98]

Absolutely. Be assertive and take control at squeeze points and junctions, or other situations when in danger. Many drivers bully their way through traffic and their minds need making up for them, simple as that. Problem is many in their ignorance see this as aggressive and somehow removing their perceived right of way on the road - hence road rage. Courtesy works both ways tho - no need to stay in primary longer than necessary.

Spot on but it takes a bit of bottle to ride like this.
A lot of cyclists ride in the gutter giving cars room to pass when they really shouldn’t.