CSS - how come?

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chrisd

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I played in yesterdays medal, the comp was won by a mid teen handicapper with a nett 69. The course is par 71 and SSS is 70. ONly 14 players entered and the winner was the only one under par, I came 5th with a (crap) nett 73.
How can the CSS be 69?​
 

rosecott

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I played in yesterdays medal, the comp was won by a mid teen handicapper with a nett 69. The course is par 71 and SSS is 70. ONly 14 players entered and the winner was the only one under par, I came 5th with a (crap) nett 73.
How can the CSS be 69?​
See my posting on the "CSS Formula" thread the other day - it's all about the proportion of Cats 1/2/3 within buffer.
 
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chrisd

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See my posting on the "CSS Formula" thread the other day - it's all about the proportion of Cats 1/2/3 within buffer.
Thanks for the point in that direction - still as clear as mud though! Only one player broke par and the CSS is 1 under par? I am sure that the computer calculates it correctly but it's a nonsense to me!
 

rickg

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Unfortunately the CSS calcs are flawed when there is a small field.
If we'd have had a normal sized field last week in the atrocious conditions our CSS would have been 74 and reductions only without a shadow of a doubt. But because there were only 6 (inc 2 D/Q's) CSS stayed at 71 and I got a minimal cut in return for some of the best golf I have ever played and very unlikely to repeat in a very long time.

This was reinforced by the fact that I was cut 3 shots as a result by the Wednesday swindle, (none of whom were in the medal but appreciated the quality of the golf played given the conditions).

All I can hope for is that I shoot another 4 under CSS round like yesterday in the near future and then the new exceptional adjustment ruling would initiate a handicap review.

edited: just realised that it was only 3 under CSS as CSS came down by 1. :(
 
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rosecott

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Unfortunately the CSS calcs are flawed when there is a small field.
If we'd have had a normal sized field last week in the atrocious conditions our CSS would have been 74 and reductions only without a shadow of a doubt. But because there were only 6 (inc 2 D/Q's) CSS stayed at 71 and I got a minimal cut in return for some of the best golf I have ever played and very unlikely to repeat in a very long time.

This was reinforced by the fact that I was cut 3 shots as a result by the Wednesday swindle, (none of whom were in the medal but appreciated the quality of the golf played given the conditions).

All I can hope for is that I shoot another 4 under CSS round like yesterday in the near future and then the new exceptional adjustment ruling would initiate a handicap review.

edited: just realised that it was only 3 under CSS as CSS came down by 1. :(
I'm guessing there was only one other Cat 1/2/3 playing. That situation is always going to produce an iffy CSS.
 

Imurg

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I'm guessing there was only one other Cat 1/2/3 playing. That situation is always going to produce an iffy CSS.
Which brings into question it's validity.
Last year a Midweek Medal was won with nett 69 - equal to SSS
This was the best score returned.
Yet CSS went down to 68.
It's a completely unnecessary nonsense.
 

rosecott

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Which brings into question it's validity.
Last year a Midweek Medal was won with nett 69 - equal to SSS
This was the best score returned.
Yet CSS went down to 68.
It's a completely unnecessary nonsense.
The validity is the expression of the performance of the field as a whole - Cat 4 excluded. How else would you estimate the effect of weather/conditions on the scores returned?
 

Imurg

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Why do the Powers that Be feel the need to?

Weather plays little part in it. How many times have we heard of a beautiful Summer's day when many play like they have a lump of 4x2 in their hands - and how many times has it been blowing a Hoolie with sideways rain and decent scores come in?

Our Handicaps are allocated using SSS

Why is it that SSS is now deemed to not be the correct thing to measure against?

If you play well and beat SSS you get cut.
If you don't and you're outside your buffer you go up.

Simple

No need for any complicated formula that doesn't even include the whole field.

I want my handicap to be determined by how I play - not by how anyone else does.
 

rosecott

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If you play well and beat SSS you get cut.
If you don't and you're outside your buffer you go up.
But if you play well, beat SSS and no-one else gets near SSS, then you've played well above the standard and deserve a bigger cut.
 

fundy

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the fact that css can come down when no one beats par is imo farcical, happened to me last yr, shot level to win and css was -1.

css clearly doesnt work for small field comps, and the problem is that at a lot of clubs, you regularly get small field comps, especially the mid week ones.

not sure i know what the right solution is, but css is far from perfect
 

Imurg

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But if you play well, beat SSS and no-one else gets near SSS, then you've played well above the standard and deserve a bigger cut.
But that is determining my handicap by how everyone else has played.
I have no control over how they play.
If I deserve a bigger cut then should they deserve a larger than 0.1 increase as they have played well below the standard?
 

rosecott

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css is far from perfect
We all know it's not perfect and never will be but CONGU have tried in the latest changes to address the perennial problem of small fields. I don't think there can ever be a complete solution - maybe get more people playing midweek.
 

rosecott

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But that is determining my handicap by how everyone else has played.
I have no control over how they play.
If I deserve a bigger cut then should they deserve a larger than 0.1 increase as they have played well below the standard?
No - the standard achievable has risen and if you have achieved it, you are playing above yourself. Will we ever agree? Not likely.
 

Imurg

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But the "standard" has been determined by everyone else in the field's performance - not just mine.

If I beat SSS then I take the cut, if I don't make buffer I go up. Why should the performance of everyone else in the field alter that.

CSS isn't needed - we have a "Standard" - it's called Standard Scratch Score....

Take a hypothetical situation.

100 Category 1 Golfers in a comp all shoot nett 70 on a SSS of 69.
They have all reached buffer according to SSS but CSS will go down - so everyone goes up 0.1.........

What a wonderful system
 

rosecott

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But the "standard" has been determined by everyone else in the field's performance - not just mine.

If I beat SSS then I take the cut, if I don't make buffer I go up. Why should the performance of everyone else in the field alter that.

CSS isn't needed - we have a "Standard" - it's called Standard Scratch Score....

Take a hypothetical situation.

100 Category 1 Golfers in a comp all shoot nett 70 on a SSS of 69.
They have all reached buffer according to SSS but CSS will go down - so everyone goes up 0.1.........

What a wonderful system
That would never happen - the system has always been based on the kind of situations which actually occur based on the wealth of statistics gathered over many years. How many statistics have you gathered?

P.S. Off to bed now as playing at 7.30 tomorrow - to be continued.
 
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Imurg

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But the "standard" has been determined by everyone else in the field's performance - not just mine.

If I beat SSS then I take the cut, if I don't make buffer I go up. Why should the performance of everyone else in the field alter that.

CSS isn't needed - we have a "Standard" - it's called Standard Scratch Score....

Take a hypothetical situation.

100 Category 1 Golfers in a comp all shoot nett 70 on a SSS of 69.
They have all reached buffer according to SSS but CSS will go down - so everyone goes up 0.1.........

What a wonderful system
That would never happen - the system has always been based on the kind of situations which actually occur based on the wealth of statistics gathered over many years. How many statistics have you gathered?

P.S. Off to bed now as playing at 7.30 tomorrow - to be continued.
Hypothetical situations hardly, if ever, occur. But, in theory, it could.

I know of 2 instances in the last 6 months where SSS was not bettered but CSS went down.
That is totally illogical - except, obviously, to Statisticians and CONGU.

You're right - we'll never agree. You've agreed that in certain circumstances CSS is invalid - you'll never convince me that CSS is valid at all.
 

SGC001

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It's not a perfect system and never will be, but when you can get no-one shooting under par (not in the instance of the op) and the css going down there's a problem with it.

Situations like this remind of the duckworth lewis system in cricket and some anomalies that mean a side can be bowled out for a total of say 180 and in a rain affected match the opposition have to get 190 in reduced overs. How hard would it be to write into the cricket algorithm that the score can never be greater than the total got?

It's a shame something similar couldn't be worked into the golf program.
 

Fyldewhite

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But the "standard" has been determined by everyone else in the field's performance - not just mine.

If I beat SSS then I take the cut, if I don't make buffer I go up. Why should the performance of everyone else in the field alter that.

CSS isn't needed - we have a "Standard" - it's called Standard Scratch Score....

Take a hypothetical situation.

100 Category 1 Golfers in a comp all shoot nett 70 on a SSS of 69.
They have all reached buffer according to SSS but CSS will go down - so everyone goes up 0.1.........

What a wonderful system
It's got nowt to do with SSS, that's just the starting point for each course.....I assume you agree that some courses are easier than others. It's about how well you perform against "the field". In other words, if you shoot 5 under on a day that "the field" shoots mostly 5 over then you get a bigger cut than if you shoot the same score when most others also shoot low. It really is quite simple, logical and most importantly fair in the long run with respect to players across the country rather than within one club. If you shoot -5 on your course on a hard day and I shoot -5 on mine on an easy day how can it be fair to cut us the same amount when you clearly played much better?

I do tend to agree that there should be a minimum field though as low numbers will potentially skew things.
 
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