Course rating/Par/Shots

[VVega]

Sorry if it's been covered, but I still have one question about the new system.

Consider a course that is rated:

- white tees: rating 73, slope 139, par 72
- yellow tees: rating 69.8, slope 135, par 72


From either tees the player is given the same number of shots.

Question: it seems pointless for the player to play from the white (more difficult) if they have the same number of shots given, unless when the score is processed the differential will be calculated differently.

E.g. if the player scores 82 gross and was given 10 shots, they'd be nett 72 for the round. Would the differential for hcp purposes be calculated as if they scored under par from the whites (-1) and over par (+2.2) from the yellows?

Can anyone clarify?

 

[Neilds]

I can't seem to work out how you would get the same shots for both courses? By my calculations, to get 10 shots on the yellows, you would get 13 on the whites - roughly

 

[VVega]

I can't seem to work out how you would get the same shots for both courses? By my calculations, to get 10 shots on the yellows, you would get 13 on the whites - roughly

According to EG, a player with the index of 16.5 gets 20 from either tees.

 

[BubbaP]

As you put in the OP, forget about par - the differentials will be against the course rating

 

[jim8flog]

There are certain handicap indexes where the PH remains the same off either tee because of the decimal points (it was the same for me up until last comp)

From a handicap adjustment point of view it is the course rating that is important

the same score on yellow and white produces a different differential, being 3.2 (73 - 69.8).

The player in your example would probably end up with a lower H.I. if they put all their scores in from the yellow tees.


I never put in general play scores from our yellows because I want my handicap to be based upon the whites which is where we play the majority of comps from.

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry if it's been covered, but I still have one question about the new system.

Consider a course that is rated:

- white tees: rating 73, slope 139, par 72
- yellow tees: rating 69.8, slope 135, par 72


From either tees the player is given the same number of shots.

Question: it seems pointless for the player to play from the white (more difficult) if they have the same number of shots given, unless when the score is processed the differential will be calculated differently.

E.g. if the player scores 82 gross and was given 10 shots, they'd be nett 72 for the round. Would the differential for hcp purposes be calculated as if they scored under par from the whites (-1) and over par (+2.2) from the yellows?

Can anyone clarify?

What the highlighted bit demonstrates to me is that Yellow Tees are significantly easier (for a Scratch player) but the course is still tough/tricky!
Par has never been a particularly relevant metric!
In 'old money' SSS (a much better metric) would almost certainly have been 73 and 70 for White and Yellow resp.
Slope (the 'new' concept of WHS) indicates the relative difficulty of the course between a Scratch and a Bogey (about 20) handicap player.

With your 'example' and assuming a player with a Handicap Index of 10, their Playing Handicap would be 13 from Whites and 10 from Yellows. It has to be calculated that way cf your 'given 10 shots' method as PH needs to be/is calculated before the round, not after. So they would have scored 'better than (3 under) standard' if from Whites and 'to standard' if from Yellows. Again your 'under/over par' may be descriptive, but not a great term - and your numbers (-1 and +2.2) need to be slid (by -2) because of the effect of Slope(s).
There are plenty of Playing Handicap (PH) calculaters where you can input values and see the results of CR and Slope. Slope of 113 is the 'zero effect' value, so/where PH = CR.

 

[rulefan]

Sorry if it's been covered, but I still have one question about the new system.

Consider a course that is rated:

- white tees: rating 73, slope 139, par 72
- yellow tees: rating 69.8, slope 135, par 72


From either tees the player is given the same number of shots.

Question: it seems pointless for the player to play from the white (more difficult) if they have the same number of shots given, unless when the score is processed the differential will be calculated differently.

E.g. if the player scores 82 gross and was given 10 shots, they'd be nett 72 for the round. Would the differential for hcp purposes be calculated as if they scored under par from the whites (-1) and over par (+2.2) from the yellows?

Can anyone clarify?

A player would not get the same shot on those two courses. Remember it is Course Handicap that is used NOT Handicap Index and that is compared with the Course Rating to determine how well or badly he played.
Course Handicap = Handicap Index * (Slope / 113)

 

[VVega]

Thanks for all replies.

A number of those are getting confused between hcp index and the course handicap.

As I said in the original post the player gets the SAME course handicap from either tees, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

The correct answer I think was the one that the higher course rating (white tees) would produce a better differential given the same course handicap and the same score.

 

[VVega]

A player would not get the same shot on those two courses. Remember it is Course Handicap that is used NOT Handicap Index and that is compared with the Course Rating to determine how well or badly he played.
Course Handicap = Handicap Index * (Slope / 113)

As I said in my other reply, it did. 16.5 index produced 20 course hcp from both tees according to EG app.

 

[Swango1980]

Thanks for all replies.

A number of those are getting confused between hcp index and the course handicap.

As I said in the original post the player gets the SAME course handicap from either tees, which is why I asked the question in the first place.

The correct answer I think was the one that the higher course rating (white tees) would produce a better differential given the same course handicap and the same score.

Yes, the gross / score differential is calculated by comparing the players score to the Course Rating. So, you can forget about par. A gross score of 80 off whites, for example, would result in lower score differential than a gross score of 18 off yellows. It is the score differential that is used to work out the Player's Index.

Incidentally, in the UK the Index is converted to Course Handicap by using the slope only, which accounts for the relative difficulty between good and less good players. That's why in your example the course handicaps do not really change (depending on decimal points) between courses, as the relative difficulty off both tees is similar. In other national authorities, such as the USA, they also included the difference between Course Rating and Par within the course handicap (i.e. absolute difficulty of course) along with the relative difficulty (slope). So, had your courses been in the US, your course handicap would be around 3 shots higher off whites.

 

[VVega]

Yes, the gross / score differential is calculated by comparing the players score to the Course Rating. So, you can forget about par. A gross score of 80 off whites, for example, would result in lower score differential than a gross score of 18 off yellows. It is the score differential that is used to work out the Player's Index.

Incidentally, in the UK the Index is converted to Course Handicap by using the slope only, which accounts for the relative difficulty between good and less good players. That's why in your example the course handicaps do not really change (depending on decimal points) between courses, as the relative difficulty off both tees is similar. In other national authorities, such as the USA, they also included the difference between Course Rating and Par within the course handicap (i.e. absolute difficulty of course) along with the relative difficulty (slope). So, had your courses been in the US, your course handicap would be around 3 shots higher off whites.

Thank you for further explanation, I can see now that using the formulae:
Course Handicap = Handicap Index * (Slope / 113)

we get for the 16.5 hcp index player:
16.5*(139/113) = 20.296
16.5*(135/113) = 19.71

Which both rounded to 20 course hcp, which then feels counter-intuitive as there is no "reward" from the more difficult tee...

However, as everyone explained above, it's the course differential that matters (though see below, matters for what? for the handicap index?). The formulae for which is (113/SR)*(Adj Gross - CR), which in the case of the above player scoring 93 from both of these tees, the differentials will be respectively:

(113/139)*(93-73) = 16.3
(113/135)*(93-69.8) = 19.4

Hence, the player certainly played better from the white tees

The only question I then have left, what was the relevance of the course handicap for the player? Is it for the purposes of the competition only(ignoring the playing handicap for the moment)?

From the competition point of view, the player receiving 20 shots would benefit from playing from the yellow tee, as they would've scored:

white: 93-20 = 73 which equals the course rating?
yellow: 93-20 =73 which is 3 shots above the course rating?

Or should I be comparing this to Par which is 72 from both tees and therefore the player scored the same for the purpose of the competition?

Would the following be a reasonable conclusion:

-- If given the same number of shots from the longer/shorter tees, for the handicap index purposes it's better play the longer tees (higher course rating)

-- If playing in a competition, provided the par is the same from both tees, it's better to play from the shorter (easier) tee?

PS While I like computers doing the job of all these calculations and being able to submit a round from anywhere and get the immediate hcp index update, it does look soooo complicated compared to the good old hcp/CSS/buffer...

 

[Swango1980]

Thank you for further explanation, I can see now that using the formulae:
Course Handicap = Handicap Index * (Slope / 113)

we get for the 16.5 hcp index player:
16.5*(139/113) = 20.296
16.5*(135/113) = 19.71

Which both rounded to 20 course hcp, which then feels counter-intuitive as there is no "reward" from the more difficult tee...

However, as everyone explained above, it's the course differential that matters (though see below, matters for what? for the handicap index?). The formulae for which is (113/SR)*(Adj Gross - CR), which in the case of the above player scoring 93 from both of these tees, the differentials will be respectively:

(113/139)*(93-73) = 16.3
(113/135)*(93-69.8) = 19.4

Hence, the player certainly played better from the white tees

The only question I then have left, what was the relevance of the course handicap for the player? Is it for the purposes of the competition only(ignoring the playing handicap for the moment)?

From the competition point of view, the player receiving 20 shots would benefit from playing from the yellow tee, as they would've scored:

white: 93-20 = 73 which equals the course rating?
yellow: 93-20 =73 which is 3 shots above the course rating?

Or should I be comparing this to Par which is 72 from both tees and therefore the player scored the same for the purpose of the competition?

Would the following be a reasonable conclusion:

-- If given the same number of shots from the longer/shorter tees, for the handicap index purposes it's better play the longer tees (higher course rating)

-- If playing in a competition, provided the par is the same from both tees, it's better to play from the shorter (easier) tee?

PS While I like computers doing the job of all these calculations and being able to submit a round from anywhere and get the immediate hcp index update, it does look soooo complicated compared to the good old hcp/CSS/buffer...

The 16.3 score differential off whites is better than the 19.4, so assuming this is a Acceptable Round for handicap, will yield a bigger drop in the players handicap (assuming it is in the top 8 scores).

The handicap is effectively used to compete fairly against other players with different abilities. So, if you were to take absolute difficulty also into account, all players would also generally receive 3 extra shots off whites compared to playing off yellows. But, as that absolute difference would apply to all, it really means there is no change to the relative difference between player handicaps. So, although it feels more appropriate to get 3 extra shots off whites (hence what they've done in US), it ultimately makes no real relative difference between players.

So, to play to handicap off whites you need to shoot a nett 73, whereas to play to your handicap off yellows you need a nett 70 (similar to pre WHS, when you needed to compare your nett score to SSS/CSS, not par)

If a player played all their rounds of yellows, and the average gross score of their best 8 was 90, their Index would be 16.9. However, if the average of their best 8 was also 90, but off whites, their Index would be 13.8. This lower Index recognises that whites are harder than yellows, thus shooting 90 off whites is better than 90 off yellows.

 

[VVega]

The handicap is effectively used to compete fairly against other players with different abilities. So, if you were to take absolute difficulty also into account, all players would also generally receive 3 extra shots off whites compared to playing off yellows. But, as that absolute difference would apply to all, it really means there is no change to the relative difference between player handicaps. So, although it feels more appropriate to get 3 extra shots off whites (hence what they've done in US), it ultimately makes no real relative difference between players.

Thank you for the reply. I see how the above makes sense if the competition is played from the same tees by all players. However, there is now an option to have mixed tees competition since in theory they course handicap is reflecting the challenge of each accordingly. In the mixed tees comp, would the player benefit from choosing the shorter tees if they are given the same shots from both?

 

[rulefan]

Thank you for the reply. I see how the above makes sense if the competition is played from the same tees by all players. However, there is now an option to have mixed tees competition since in theory they course handicap is reflecting the challenge of each accordingly. In the mixed tees comp, would the player benefit from choosing the shorter tees if they are given the same shots from both?

Which player?

 

[Deleted member 29109]

I presume any player?

At my club I would have one fewer shots playing from the shortest Vs the longest tess. But would be playing a coures some 2132 yards shorter. It brings all the par 5s into 2 shot range, and a few of the pars 4s could be drivable depending on the wind direction. That is easily worth giving up 1 shot for.

 

[Swango1980]

Thank you for the reply. I see how the above makes sense if the competition is played from the same tees by all players. However, there is now an option to have mixed tees competition since in theory they course handicap is reflecting the challenge of each accordingly. In the mixed tees comp, would the player benefit from choosing the shorter tees if they are given the same shots from both?

Ahhh, that is a different matter. If there is a mixed tee competition, the PLAYING handicap calculation is different. The difference in Course Ratings is factored in, and the players playing off the tees with highest CR (white tees) will get the extra shots equal to the difference in course ratings

 

[VVega]

Which player?

Our example player who gets the same course hcp from both tees.

 

[VVega]

Thank you for all replies. I think it’s clear now to me - should play more golf and let computers to calculate what the results mean

 

[jim8flog]

Thank you for the reply. I see how the above makes sense if the competition is played from the same tees by all players. However, there is now an option to have mixed tees competition since in theory they course handicap is reflecting the challenge of each accordingly. In the mixed tees comp, would the player benefit from choosing the shorter tees if they are given the same shots from both?

In a mixed tee comp the players have their handicaps adjusted according to which tee is being used so it is a level playing field.

 

[rulefan]

I presume any player?

At my club I would have one fewer shots playing from the shortest Vs the longest tess. But would be playing a coures some 2132 yards shorter. It brings all the par 5s into 2 shot range, and a few of the pars 4s could be drivable depending on the wind direction. That is easily worth giving up 1 shot for.

But have you accounted for Slope? It is a significant factor in the Score Differential calculation.