Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale?

[Spear-Chucker]

Agree wholeheartedly with post #80.

It's not snake oil at all although the benefits vary depending on the individual.

Anyone should benefit from the right length clubs, right shaft flex for their abilities, lie angle, grip thickness, ball type and so on but it's only a small percentage of the process. There is NO substitute however for learning how to hit different shot types with the kit you have and then learning to apply that to the course to make a score. Small technological improvements from manufacturers are there to be enjoyed though and why not?

I wouldn't dream of joining a running club wearing wellies but neither would the worlds best running shoes make me a decent runner. Dedication, coaching, good diet and a bit of luck might improve my chances of giving Bolt a run for his money though

 

[Backsticks]

It's not snake oil at all although the benefits vary depending on the individual.

Anyone should benefit from the right length clubs, right shaft flex for their abilities, lie angle, grip thickness, ball type and so on but it's only a small percentage of the process.

Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.

 

[Region3]

Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.

Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?

 

[Backsticks]

Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?

If you are doing it right, it doesnt matter - the ball is already gone.

 

[3565]

Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.

Consider me duped then, along with Tim Wishon, Homer Kelley, Tutleman, Gene Sarazen, Nicklaus, all those who studied the golf swing, R&D of many companies and individuals who spent money and lifetime in equipment to make the game a more enjoyable experience......... Let's play golf then of yesteryear and play it backsticks style.

 

[Backsticks]

Is there any evidence that they achieved anything other than make themselves money ?

 

[3565]

I've seen the evidence for myself that getting fitted can make a huge difference in my game and like others on a different thread are now seeing benefits. It's obvious you think it's a load of nonsense yet you 'maybe' playing with the very equipment that you say these people are duping us with?

 

[Spear-Chucker]

Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.

Not sure that you've had the opportunity to explore this properly as spending some time with a clued up fitter would be quite enlightening. Have you tried it?

The many factors influencing the golf shot are technical, psychological and environmental - by understanding each element you will be able to exact a little more improvement which makes the game a lot more enjoyable. Technical elements are not the whole picture for sure but do play an important role. That is what drives the industry and by ignoring that someone is simply refusing to see what's plainly in front of them. Fear not, Copernicus had similar issues.

 

[Region3]

If you are doing it right, it doesnt matter - the ball is already gone.

Who does it right the majority of the time? I don't, do you?

Much simpler just to get the correct lie angle for your swing for the times it isn't perfect.

 

[tsped83]

Having had numerous fittings for driver and irons and obsessed about lie angles, launch angles and all the other guff, I am now custom fit free!

Non custom fit clubs in the bag for me, my handicap has fallen from 17 to 12.6 (haha! Lower than Homer now!) in the last few months. Get used to a set, stick with them, see results. Bada Bing!

 

[guest100718]

Having had numerous fittings for driver and irons and obsessed about lie angles, launch angles and all the other guff, I am now custom fit free!

Non custom fit clubs in the bag for me, my handicap has fallen from 17 to 12.6 (haha! Lower than Homer now!) in the last few months. Get used to a set, stick with them, see results. Bada Bing!

thats forum blasphemy....

 

[delc]

Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?

I had a problem with hooking and shanking my iron shots for years. Then a custom fitting showed that I needed the lie angle set a couple of degrees flatter than standard and that made a huge difference to my game. 😎

 

[Wildrover]

Can't believe that people still part with their hard earned for off the shelf clubs. Even if you are swinging like an octopus trapped in a phone box on the day, there is benefit from getting the correct length and lie angle. Also a good shot is a good shot, part of custom fitting is about making your not so good ones better as nobody middles it every time, but if you can reduce your slice/hook/skies/tops etc on the bad ones then that can only benefit your game.

 

[guest100718]

yes but custom fitting will do little to reduce those specific bad shots yoiu mention

 

[Wildrover]

yes but custom fitting will do little to reduce those specific bad shots yoiu mention

I beg to differ.

Slice - Not enough loft/shaft to heavy or stiff/iron lie too flat.
Hook - Too much loft/shaft to soft or light/iron lie too upright.
Skies - Club too long.
Tops - Club too short.

Not always the causes but a good place to start. The idea of CF is that you are fitted for your normal swing, therefore the equipment should be set up to counteract any faults as much as possible, you don't need a perfect swing for this, just your normal one.

 

[guest100718]

I beg to differ.

Slice - Not enough loft/shaft to heavy or stiff/iron lie too flat.
Hook - Too much loft/shaft to soft or light/iron lie too upright.
Skies - Club too long.
Tops - Club too short.

Not always the causes but a good place to start. The idea of CF is that you are fitted for your normal swing, therefore the equipment should be set up to counteract any faults as much as possible, you don't need a perfect swing for this, just your normal one.

for hooks and slices google ball flight laws
tops are mainly a rooky error, but we all hit the odd skinny one and it has nothing to do with shaft length
A sky is just one of things that happen to us all

Lie angle can affect toe up/down and impact meaning the face will be closed or more open, but most of bad shots you see will not benfit from a club fitting.

If i had to choose betrween being given a 2nd hand set from a forummer but I could practice as much as I liked vs 10 grand to spend on an uber fititng but limtied to 1 practice session a week, i know what i'd choose

 

[Alucard]

When you first begin to learn to play golf, provided the clubs you are using sit flat at address no toe in the air nor heel in the air, with a good teaching pro showing you how to Grip the clubs and address the ball then thats good enough. I prefer half a set of old blades for this learning stage as they give you instant feedback on what went wrong.

Once you develop a reasonably consistent swing via lessons and Practice then I feel sure that a personal fitting will help most people, it can not do any harm anyway and may give confidence to those that lack it.

Game improvement clubs at that point will instantly help the golfer to find a larger sweet spot more consistently and then you enjoy the game so much more.

 

[bobmac]

When you first begin to learn to play golf, provided the clubs you are using sit flat at address no toe in the air nor heel in the air,

Actually, they should normally sit a little 'toe up' at address to allow for the shaft flexing downwards into impact.

 

[Alucard]

Actually, they should normally sit a little 'toe up' at address to allow for the shaft flexing downwards into impact.

Obviously I mean noticeably stuck up in the air due to the shaft being too long and the players hands low. The Old and the New Coloured Dot ping fitting systems are good enough to work with for beginners and your good teaching pro would know in any case as you would get the half set of blades off him.

 

[Lazkir]

Having my clubs fitted meant that I never had to doubt that it was my own fault for bad shots and not the clubs themselves.
It's just one less thing to worry about imo.