robinthehood
Hacker
Oof people cheat at golf. They really do, i have seen them.
Cheating on the course
- Thread starter Britishshooting
- Start date
Dibby
Assistant Pro
The danger is that the guy actually is innocent, but his identity has already been partially inferred, and some, but not all, of the facts of the incident, have been published.
Whilst maybe unlikely, it's possible he went in the long grass, found a ball that wasn't his and kicked it out flicked it towards his bag with a club, then carried on looking, found his ball, and actually did make par, but now he has been tarnished without even having a chance to present his side.
Whilst maybe unlikely, it's possible he went in the long grass, found a ball that wasn't his and kicked it out flicked it towards his bag with a club, then carried on looking, found his ball, and actually did make par, but now he has been tarnished without even having a chance to present his side.
robinthehood
Hacker
Or he is a straight up cheat and has been busted.
GB72
Money List Winner
Have to agree, this has been handled pretty badly so far with a clear presumption of guilt. It seems to ignore points like:
1. Did the incident actually happen. Does the person have an axe to grind with the person being accused.
2. Why was it not raised on the course, yes you can argue that it was to avoid confrontation etc but, equally, it could be that the incident never happened.
3. Has the scorecard been checked to see if a score was returned for that hole.
4. Did anyone else see anything. Did the playing partner not have any concerns that a member of the group was standing 40 yards ahead of him whilst is was playing his shot.
5. The accuser has already implied the punishment expected by stating that he would not play in any group with this person in. Basically asking for the person to be removed from the club. Again, could imply an axe to grind and that this person is not wanted as a member.
I can sort of see why the action was taken, giving the person a chance to step forward, confess and, perhaps, resign from the club without and fuss or without the legal implication of calling someone a cheat with only unsupported hearsay evidence to rely on. That said, if that happened then a potential cheat would be free to join elsewhere with a clear record.
Anyway, as I see it, the evidence available would not stand up to the more basic 'balance of probabilities' applied to a civil trial let alone being proved beyond reasonable doubt. Think this is an attempt to take the committee out of the firing line in a delicate and fractious situation that has only made matters worse.
1. Did the incident actually happen. Does the person have an axe to grind with the person being accused.
2. Why was it not raised on the course, yes you can argue that it was to avoid confrontation etc but, equally, it could be that the incident never happened.
3. Has the scorecard been checked to see if a score was returned for that hole.
4. Did anyone else see anything. Did the playing partner not have any concerns that a member of the group was standing 40 yards ahead of him whilst is was playing his shot.
5. The accuser has already implied the punishment expected by stating that he would not play in any group with this person in. Basically asking for the person to be removed from the club. Again, could imply an axe to grind and that this person is not wanted as a member.
I can sort of see why the action was taken, giving the person a chance to step forward, confess and, perhaps, resign from the club without and fuss or without the legal implication of calling someone a cheat with only unsupported hearsay evidence to rely on. That said, if that happened then a potential cheat would be free to join elsewhere with a clear record.
Anyway, as I see it, the evidence available would not stand up to the more basic 'balance of probabilities' applied to a civil trial let alone being proved beyond reasonable doubt. Think this is an attempt to take the committee out of the firing line in a delicate and fractious situation that has only made matters worse.
Dibby
Assistant Pro
That's also an option, but no one here (unless the guy happens to post on this forum) can definitely say either way, which is the entire point.
Siolag
Active member
If he has done that, it’s extremely foolish to have done so in a competition and might have ruined someone else’s round.
robinthehood
Hacker
Exactly....
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
That would be practising on the course would it not.
General penalty is DQ unless this has changed , so his 5 would be a wrong score.
It’s very unprofessional from the club and as such gives the guy a chance to get away with it depending on his defence strategy.
But 1-1 is not good enough for all the reasons stated.
Very messy and could lead to an innocent player in the same group being accused.
Dibby
Assistant Pro
People would consider flicking a ball towards your bag practising? Surely not, otherwise picking the ball up with a wedge or putter would be the same.
The big omission so far, is there is no mention as to whether he actually hit a shot with the ball that was moved. Did the witness see him do this, and it's just not in the mail, or had the witness moved on by then, and only seen the prior events? That's the crux of this whole mess, we only know partially what has happened but already the executioner has been booked. The guy who reported it pulling out of future events just throws even more fuel on the already out of control fire.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
We are talking technicalities and playing a shot to your bag with a found ball during the play of a hole would be deemed just that.
Yes agree with the rest.
Springveldt
Well-known member
But if there is only 1 guy making the accusation and he defends himself by saying it didn't happen then he has signed for a correct scorecard.
The email from the club has already gave a guilty verdict all the guy can do now is either ignore it and put up with tongues wagging or go and say to the chairman "that didn't happen" and at that point you have a word v word battle.
The club should have never sent out the first email, you can't judge someone guilty without letting them defend themselves on the word of a single person, even if he is a filthy cheat.
Orikoru
Tour Winner
The point is he cannot be 'busted' unless he accepts responsibility, or a second witness comes forward, because it will be one man's word against his. No proof.
Siolag
Active member
I meant foolish because the automatic assumption from anyone watching such an action would be 'That's cheating' rather than 'Oh look someone is practising on the course'.
mister v
Newbie
believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
The original email sent out by the club does sound as if he's been found guilty end off discussion.
Im not a fan of cheats, and golf is really a sport where your honesty is relied upon very heavily.
I do think that the club in question could have handled it differently, and i feel sorry for the groups in and around the area who may have been brought into this debate while being perfectly innocent.
If the guy has cheated then he deserves his comeuppance, but as im innocent im going to sue!!!!
The original email sent out by the club does sound as if he's been found guilty end off discussion.
Im not a fan of cheats, and golf is really a sport where your honesty is relied upon very heavily.
I do think that the club in question could have handled it differently, and i feel sorry for the groups in and around the area who may have been brought into this debate while being perfectly innocent.
If the guy has cheated then he deserves his comeuppance, but as im innocent im going to sue!!!!
Fabia999
Active member
I think the club has came out the way they have to scare the "guilty party" into admitting it because they know if it goes to a disciplinary hearing its just one word against another.
Slab
Occasional Tour Caddy
Totally off topic; I've always liked that you can hit a ball back towards the practice area from the fairway and its not practicing (some still do a double-take at you)
Dasit
Tour Rookie
Perhaps cheating did happen.
But a witness statement needs to be taken with caution.
So often what a person sees is not actually what is happening. This is potentially life changing for a member at a golf club, being accused of cheating. Losing friends, family, being outcasted.
Can the witness be 100%?
But a witness statement needs to be taken with caution.
So often what a person sees is not actually what is happening. This is potentially life changing for a member at a golf club, being accused of cheating. Losing friends, family, being outcasted.
Can the witness be 100%?
robinthehood
Hacker
Hmmm I'd be careful with that one.....if you set up as you would normally and play a shot you'll be in trouble.
Siolag
Active member
If you did that at my course, you’d probably end up with a bill for a windscreen!
