Cant hit greens in regulation

[BiMGuy]

There are two different aspects to this advice.

1) Hit a 'safer' club off the tee instead of always choosing driver, because this will result in fewer lost balls and more fairways hit. That makes sense to everyone, I'm sure.
2) Hit a lower club off the tee to ensure you are not too close to the green for your second shot. And/or do the same with your second shot if necessary. This approach deliberately leaves a longer distance because it's one that 'feels' good.

The problem with the second aspect is that it completely goes against all the evidence from thousands of rounds of golf using Arccos and Shot Scope. All of the evidence suggests that being closer to the green lowers the score, and this is especially true as handicaps go up. It is due to this evidence that the shift in golf has moved towards trying to improve distance as well as other aspects of the game, instead of what has always been the emphasis on simply accepting your distance and working on the approach shots and short game.

I suspect that if you're teaching this approach and it's working for your clients, then it's simply about them keeping the ball in play more, rather than using longer clubs into the green because they are more confident with them.

I think you slightly contradict yourself there. The stats show that being closer to the green after your tee shot is better (as long as you are in play) for shooting lower scores. And that most of us are no more accurate with a 3 wood or long iron than a driver. If you are then I would suggest you are using the wrong driver.
So all you are doing is giving up distance and removing any possibility of hitting the green in regulation. Then of course, you hit it into the rough/trees with the “safe” club anyway, so you’ve now given up distance and are still in trouble.

Hitting a shorter club for safety just doesn’t work if you want to shoot lower scores. It’s old fashioned thinking.

If a player can’t hit driver well. That should be their priority in my opinion. Having to get up and down for bogie or double gets tiring real quick.

 

[Depreston]

I can shoot in the 70s and hit 60% GIR and I can shoot in the 70s and hit 20% GIR

I know which is less stressful and what I’d prefer every round

 

[SimonC]

I can shoot in the 70s and hit 60% GIR and I can shoot in the 70s and hit 20% GIR

I know which is less stressful and what I’d prefer every round

I once played in a 36 hole event at my home club; in the morning round I hit every green in regulation & had 41, yes 41 putts (5 x 3 putts & the rest 2 putts) for a round of 73 gross (+5) which at the time was level to my handicap. I then went out in the afternoon, hit it like a dog & missed more greens than I hit but chipped & putted extremely well & shot a 71 gross (+3), tis a stupid game we play

 

[Depreston]

I once played in a 36 hole event at my home club; in the morning round I hit every green in regulation & had 41, yes 41 putts (5 x 3 putts & the rest 2 putts) for a round of 73 gross (+5) which at the time was level to my handicap. I then went out in the afternoon, hit it like a dog & missed more greens than I hit but chipped & putted extremely well & shot a 71 gross (+3), tis a stupid game we play

yeah first time i broke 80 off the whites was a round like the latter.

I was obviously buzzing but knew it wasn't sustainable improving strike and hitting more greens makes shooting in the 70s a hell of a lot easier

 

[HomerJSimpson]

When I say 'hit it as far as I can' that isn't massive, I'm nota particularly long hitter, and to be honest I'm comfortable with the driver at the moment, I am keeping it in play off the tee. If I drive it 230 on a 420 yd par 4, I am being advised to hit 2 x pitching wedges to the green? I know what you are saying but obviously I will hit my hybrid and maybe miss the green/short and have a chip/pitch on to the green which is where I am falling short. Together with the 80 yards in pitch.

But I need to to practice this part of my game, hitting pitching wedge, pitching wedge won't teach me anything. Alternatively, hitting hybrid 180 off the tee, leaving two 9 irons to the green should be the better option?

Of course it depends on the situation and what faces you after the tee shot but assuming you have found the fairway, then I would be looking to hit a 5 wood/hybrid towards the green and NOT 2 x PW. I am not a long hitter either (averaging around 220) but I would rather hit a 5W to the vicinity of the green (assuming no bunkers/water some 30-50 yards short in which case lay up before that). Being as close to the green gives you far more options. You can play a long pitch and run (low risk) or a higher pitch if you need to carry it to a back pin.

I have terrible short game issues and have been using something called the linear method (plenty on youtube or google it) which has helped me use the bounce but I know Bob and others would recommend using a conventional method. the easiest answer is to get a pitching/chipping lesson and really working hard on the technique so you don't have to be thinking about that and you can then concentrate on distance control.

 

[SimonC]

yeah first time i broke 80 off the whites was a round like the latter.

I was obviously buzzing but knew it wasn't sustainable improving strike and hitting more greens makes shooting in the 70s a hell of a lot easier

Yes I know what I'd rather do, in reality the +5 hitting every green was probably as bad as the score could have been, whereas the +3 missing lots of greens was pretty much as good as it could have been.

I tend to focus on my ball striking as it's the part of the game I enjoy most, I know I can chip & putt that's more of a confidence thing for me.

 

[phillarrow]

I think you slightly contradict yourself there. The stats show that being closer to the green after your tee shot is better (as long as you are in play) for shooting lower scores. And that most of us are no more accurate with a 3 wood or long iron than a driver. If you are then I would suggest you are using the wrong driver.
So all you are doing is giving up distance and removing any possibility of hitting the green in regulation. Then of course, you hit it into the rough/trees with the “safe” club anyway, so you’ve now given up distance and are still in trouble.

Hitting a shorter club for safety just doesn’t work if you want to shoot lower scores. It’s old fashioned thinking.

If a player can’t hit driver well. That should be their priority in my opinion. Having to get up and down for bogie or double gets tiring real quick.

I think you've replied to the wrong person? I'm saying exactly the same as you?

Edit: Scrap that! I realise what you're saying and you're correct. What I said in point one is just as incorrect as point 2. You're right, the stats do show that there's not really any such thing as a 'safe' club off the tee. It's just lose lose!

Either way, I don't agree at all with the advice about deliberately choosing to be further away from the green.

 

[RichA]

But isn't there a big difference between practicing and scoring?
It's fine going for the big shots in practice, when it doesn't matter if you put yourself in trouble. In a scoring round I'm more likely to do better "laying up" to at least give myself a par putt.
If we're talking about shorter hitters and higher handicaps, then we aren't realistically looking for birdie opportunities.
I'm not saying I'm not looking to improve in time, just that right now, in a round that counts for something, keeping it play is more important than trying to achieve something I'm unlikely to attain.
Right now, in winter, how many golfers of mine and the OP's standard are seriously expecting to have a birdie putt on a 420 yard par 4?

 

[Bdill93]

This is probably my biggest issue leading to bad/ higher scores than I feel I can achieve. In Summer or Winter.

I don't struggle with length and I don't commonly pick the wrong club as often my misses are pin-high or around that mark.

Just making clean consistent ball flights is practically impossible for me, on a good short game day I play well, on a bad short game day, I play awful and of course there are rounds in the middle of those extremities.

I figure its just all about practice and making your bad shot better/ more on line. Ill get there, only been playing 20 months or so and my current bad shot is about 30 yards better than it was 12 months ago

 

[Backache]

But isn't there a big difference between practicing and scoring?
It's fine going for the big shots in practice, when it doesn't matter if you put yourself in trouble. In a scoring round I'm more likely to do better "laying up" to at least give myself a par putt.
If we're talking about shorter hitters and higher handicaps, then we aren't realistically looking for birdie opportunities.
I'm not saying I'm not looking to improve in time, just that right now, in a round that counts for something, keeping it play is more important than trying to achieve something I'm unlikely to attain.
Right now, in winter, how many golfers of mine and the OP's standard are seriously expecting to have a birdie putt on a 420 yard par 4?

I think sometimes people mean different things when they are talking about laying up and laying back.
Mark Broadie did a pretty impressive statistical analysis of strategies and where shots were made and lost in his book Every Shot counts . He initially used stats collected by amateur golfers and then got permission to use the data from the PGA tour and since has collected further data from amateurs.
You can't really summarise all his findings in a post so there are always caveats but essentially he found for lowest scores on average the best strategy was to advance the ball as far as possible whilst avoiding trouble. So if you have say 180 yds to a green as an amateur it will generally make sense to go for it . However if there is a hazard say twenty yards short laying up short of this may be optimal strategy if you are not confident of carrying 160 yds. Deciding to lay up to an 'optimal' distance as opposed to laying up short of trouble is a losing strategy for pretty much all golfers.

 

[woofers]

So just how many GIRs should a 17 handicapper achieve? Logic would say 1.
GIR can be a dispiriting statistic on its own, so I tend to use “nett GIR” which takes account of the handicap, e.g with a handicap of 12, 5 or 6 GIRs would be reasonable.
As a measure of short game prowess “putts minus GIR” can be useful,
e.g. hit every green and 2 putt (36-18=18), miss every green but get up and down with a single putt (18-0=18) would indicate an outstanding short game.
18 should be considered as the ‘pure metric’, with a handicap of 12 I would consider my “putts minus GIR” target to be say, 27, (33 putts minus 6 GIR).

 

[Backache]

So just how many GIRs should a 17 handicapper achieve? Logic would say 1.

Not sure that is true there is always a dispersion around a mean,17 handicappers will lose shots through three putting , lost balls, water hazards etc.
Don't know how accurate these stats are but the table suggest about 4 is the right answer.
https://thegrint.com/range/2020/06/gir-handicap-golf-greens-regulation-target/

 

[Imurg]

I used to keep stats..
But I felt I became a slave to them, constantly thinking and worrying about my GiR stat dropping or my scrambling stat going north instead of focusing on the most important stat.
Stats don't tell you how well you're going to score today
They don't tell you the outcome of your next shot.
These days I just focus on how many times I've hit the ball and golf has been much more fun.......

 

[greenone]

GIR is a pretty meaningless stat imo. It's okay for a course with small greens but if it's large greens being on the green in regulation doesn't alway help your score. For instance I hit a par 3 in regulation at the weekend, but had a 120ft+ putt with 4 different breaks in it, I 4 putted. If I had been 6" further from the pin I'd have been off the green and would have chipped. I'm 99.9% certain if I had chipped I would have improved my score.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I used to keep stats..
But I felt I became a slave to them, constantly thinking and worrying about my GiR stat dropping or my scrambling stat going north instead of focusing on the most important stat.
Stats don't tell you how well you're going to score today
They don't tell you the outcome of your next shot.
These days I just focus on how many times I've hit the ball and golf has been much more fun.......

You and me both. I use to keep my stats on the free Scoresaver 2 and would put them in as soon as I got home and then see what it had done to my seasons numbers. Like you I became a slave to them to the point where I feel with hindsight it forced me into working on things that perhaps didn't need working on

 

[sunshine]

Exactly, statistically the closer you are to the green the better your score will be. You may have a poor short game but as Bob has stated have a lesson & learn the shots & try to be positive when you are left with a shot you don't feel comfortable with, once you become more confident in playing them you may actually find you hit more greens as you will feel less pressure to hit the green.

There’s some really duff advice on this thread. But Simon, bobmac and bi-guy are making sense.

 

[RichA]

I think sometimes people mean different things when they are talking about laying up and laying back.
Mark Broadie did a pretty impressive statistical analysis of strategies and where shots were made and lost in his book Every Shot counts . He initially used stats collected by amateur golfers and then got permission to use the data from the PGA tour and since has collected further data from amateurs.
You can't really summarise all his findings in a post so there are always caveats but essentially he found for lowest scores on average the best strategy was to advance the ball as far as possible whilst avoiding trouble. So if you have say 180 yds to a green as an amateur it will generally make sense to go for it . However if there is a hazard say twenty yards short laying up short of this may be optimal strategy if you are not confident of carrying 160 yds. Deciding to lay up to an 'optimal' distance as opposed to laying up short of trouble is a losing strategy for pretty much all golfers.

I do understand, but different golfers / different courses - I don't think the rules always apply.
I occasionally play a course where I probably would go for it every time off the tee and with my second shot. The rough around the greens and among the trees doesn't reach the top of your ball. My home course, however, is long and has really punitive rough. At any time of year, missing the fairway will cost you. My bad shot with a long iron isn't necessarily short - it tends to be pulled.

 

[Backache]

I do understand, but different golfers / different courses - I don't think the rules always apply.
I occasionally play a course where I probably would go for it every time off the tee and with my second shot. The rough around the greens and among the trees doesn't reach the top of your ball. My home course, however, is long and has really punitive rough. At any time of year, missing the fairway will cost you. My bad shot with a long iron isn't necessarily short - it tends to be pulled.

I certainly don't think advance it as far as you can applies in every situation you have to stay out of trouble as well, But that did not appear to be the particular concern of the OP;s post and in general rough is less punitive than in your home course from my experience. Rough that is very thick tends to slow play up so much with lost balls that it is rarely allowed to get to that length except a few places.